Being way new to photography I need to tap into your combined wisdoms.. I would like to set up a darkroom and start developing and printing - I gather the biggest expense is the enlarger. Looking for second hand gear - is there anything obvious i should look at as far as condition of the stuff, not that I would recognise anything to start with yet! What should i pay? Is Paterson a good brand? Or durst? Looking through the paper people are offering "whole darkrooms" for around $350 for the durst C35 colour enlarger - or Rolleimat B&W 35mm - 120mm enlarger for $600 (Aussie dollars) I'm confused. Another challenge is I can not sit and wait for the right gear to come up, I live in the country and have one shopping trip planned for the BIG SMOKE soI must settle for whats available that weekend. Help!!!

Paula

-- Paula Turner (gunsoke@bigpond.com), November 25, 1999

Answers

I hate to say this, but you are like a person with a learner's permit in the Ferrari showroom. You are about to spend a lot of money, and run the very good chance of ending up with unsuitable equipment, which may destroy your very admirable interest in darkroom work. Second hand is the way to go, but you need a mentor BAD. I wish you lots and lots of luck! Mitch

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), November 25, 1999.

Bill is right, you're not in a good position to evaluate equipment quickly or under pressure. You might want to look at eBay and search the previously sold items to see what darkroom equipment goes for. That will provide some rough, but probably high, guidelines. See if you can find someone with darkroom experience to help you, even if you have to pay their way to come with you. Otherwise you're at the mercy of people trying to unload stuff that's probably overpriced or unsuitable for your needs.

-- Conrad Hoffman (choffman@rpa.net), November 25, 1999.

Brisbane! Big smoke! Ha!

Just a little joke for the Australian contingent.

-- Tim Bolotnikoff (Timothy_Bolotnikoff@justice.qld.gov.au), November 26, 1999.

Hi Paula, since I was one of the ones who advised to do your own B&W I better add something here... :)

EBay isn't much good to you, being an American thing, and the Aussie one has just started and I doubt if there's anything there suitable.

I am in Melbourne and have seen Durst C35's for $150 including lots of extra bits included so I think $350 is a bit rich. I have one that I'd sell for $100! I have been on the lookout for a Medium Format enlarger for awhile and a few weeks ago purchased a Durst M601 incl Nikkor 50mm lens and a Meopta Magnifax enlarger incl Astron 75mm lens (a rotten cheapy lens, pity about that aspect), and a box full of junk incl Multigrade filters (2 pkts), a easel, film developing tank, and heaps of other things all for $200. I just had a look at the QLD Trading Post and saw the two adds you are refering too. Seems like a bit of a case of supply and demand! Not much on offer therefore the prices are up a bit. Both those ad's seem to have a bit of extra gear (all which you'll need or would come in handy) The major question I would ask is what are the lenses with each (esp the Rolliemat) The Durst C35 orginally came with a thing called a Durst Neotar f2.8 made by Rodenstock. It's not the bee's knees, but is not that bad. I've also got a Schneider Componar-C and EL-Nikkor and the Neotar seems ok compared to those. The other thing to consider is do you ever think you'll get into MF one day. There was a kit that converted the C35 into a 6x6 MF enlarger but these are rarer than rocking horse you-know-what! You may be best the get a MF capable enlarger in the first place. My C35 did me for 15+ years so I got good service from it! Maybe ring some photo stores in Brissy and find out what they sell (maybe you've done this if you know about Paterson enlargers). This will at least give you an idea what a new one would cost. I don't think you could beat 2nd hand though cause all the extras that they will include would soon add up. Don't forget you'll need a film developing tank as well and I'd also suggest getting liquid developers for starters. E-Mail me if you have any questions... I may be able to suggest something.

Cheers, Nige

-- Nigel Smith (nlandgl@eisa.net.au), November 26, 1999.

Just had another brain wave... we could list the things you'll need at a bare minimum. I'll start the list and others can add what I miss

1 Enlarger 1 Enlarger Timer (optional) OR a clock with second hand (yes I did this for years!) 1 Lens (50mm for 35mm, 75-80mm for 645 or MF) 1 Safelight 1 thermometer 3 trays (probably suitable for 8x10 prints would do for starters) 3 tongs (for moving prints from tray to tray) 1 film developing tank and reels A can opener (to open film canisters) Film Developer Paper Developer Stop Bath (optional - can use water) Fixer (can use for both film and paper) Photographic Paper (and variable contrast filters if using Variable contrast paper) Negative Files (for storeing your processed negs) Somewhere to wash prints A basic darkroom book. Kodak publish a good one, I think its called Kodak Darkroom Basics or something like that.

I'll even suggest some chemicals...

Ilford Plus Liquid Film Developer (also called LC29) Ilford Multigrade Paper Developer Ilford Hypam Rapid Fixer 1 box of 100, 8x10 sheets of Ilford MG1V Pearl paper (cut into little bits for test strips and smaller prints)

Ok, I'm an Ilford boy! (although I currently have a batch of Dektol I'm using for paper developer at the moment!)

-- Nigel Smith (nlandgl@eisa.net.au), November 26, 1999.

Paula, congradulations, I think you've found your mentor, and a very good and practical one at that. Listen to Nigel, he makes very good sense. P.S. I wondered about the "big smoke." Is it because of industrial pollution? There aren't any such cities left in America, which is good for the lungs, but bad for the photographers.

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), November 26, 1999.

I suspect B&W World, the parent site of this forum, has an equipment list somewhere. Do browse through the darkroom articles.

Durst make some good enlargers, as do Paterson. Paterson make (or made) at least one cheap and horrible model that I would avoid.

For your shopping list, you might add a stop-clock (or stop-watch), a film retriever (I prefer these to can openers), scissors (with rounded ends, so you don't stab yourself in the dark), blower brush, microfibre cloth.

If you can't find a physical mentor, do get a good book. I'm sure we are all happy to answer any questions you might have, but life is easier with a physical person -- you might forget to do something, but not realise it, in which case you won't have a question.

-- Alan Gibson (Alan.Gibson@technologist.com), November 26, 1999.

IMOHO (which means in my own humble opinion, if you are new to these forums) I don't think that it is that difficult. Much of the stuff is very simple.

If you are currently just doing 35mm and do not plan to invest lots of money in medium format in the near future, there is no reason to spring for a medium format enlarger. The biggest prints I USUALLY make (from 35mm) are 8x10. I'd recommend doing mostly 5x7 to start off since you will be trashing a lot of paper.

Trays: Trays are trays. You can get fancy trays with dots on the bottom (which supposedly make it easier to pick up the prints) or use any plastic container that is bigger then your print size and won't react to the chemicals. I don't care what trays I use and have a mix of many. I'd recommend buying 6 8x10 trays (it's handy to have extra). Later on, you may decide to get 11x14 or 16x20 but if you start off with these sizes, you will always use a lot of chemistry no matter how small the prints are that you are making. I have three sets of trays (which I bought used) 5x7 8x10 11x14

Tongs - simple bamboo or plastic. If your skin is sensitive, don't use your fingers. When mixed, the chemicals won't hurt you but you are still supposed to keep your fingers out of it. It never bothers me, though.

Measuring cups and chemicals. 2 measuring containers. 1 for larger amounts of water like 72 oz. (yeah I said onces! no comments from you non-Americans). The second should be smaller like 12 ounces. If you mix your chemicals from powder then you will need gallon (or what ever you foreigners use :) containers to hold it. I make my chemicals fresh from liquid concentrate every time I use my dark room (about once a week).

Print washer I recently got a cheap archival washer (still $200 U.S. dollars!) but used a cheap one for years. It really was just a tray that connects to a water faucet and had holes at the other end. Worked fine as long as you don't have too many prints floating in the water at any given time. Another option is the Kodak tray siphon. That turns a regular tray into a print washer. I think that it is about $50 U.S. new.

Which ever washer you choose, add one more chemical to your list (developer, stop, fixer). After you fix your prints, use hypo clearing for thirty seconds. This will make it so that you don't need to wash your prints as long and if you opt for a cheap washer, it will do a better job.

Enlarger

The enlarger and the enlarger lens are really the only big-deal decision that you need to make. There are lots of good 35mm enlargers. I'd recommend a used Omega B-22. It's a 35mm B&W enlarger that has been around for about 30 years. There are lots and lots of them floating around. I wouldn't touch color if I was starting out (I won't do it now).

Enlarger Lens Here is the killer. Despite what others will tell you, you can get a good print out of a stock lens. I think the B-22 comes with an el-omegar lens . As you get more advanced you may look for a "professional" enlarging lens in the future. I use a Schnider Componon for medium format that cost me $300.00. It actually cost almost as much as the used Omega D2 that I recently bought.

Timer Get a timer. There are lots of used Gralabs and Timolites around. Actually just about any enlarging timer would work fine.

Easel Holds the paper down. Just about any work fine.

Grain Magnifier Optional. Makes it easier to focus the enlarger.

Paper Another decision. A few major choices here. There are dozens of papers but what it all boils down to is fiber based or resin coated (RC). RC is faster to work with but what's your rush! I use fiber base paper and IMOHO I believe that the prints look much better then RC.

One more choice on paper. Variable Contrast or graded. You'll have to research this your self but I use Ilford VC paper and filters.

Safe light As long as it isn't too close to the paper, any Kodak or Patterson is fine.

Good Luck!

Craig

-- Craig Brown (csbrown@tastybuzz.com), November 26, 1999.

Paula, don't get too stressed out by this. There are a lot of good used enlargers in the world, and many of them in Australia. You don't need to go into thirty year mortgages to buy one. THe advice above should help. I think that the most important item to buy is a good enlarger lens. You can work around a lot of other things in a darkroom, like what kind of trays and timers you use, but a good enlarging lens is mandatory. Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon, etc. all have good lenses. I use Componons myself. In fact, I have an old Federal enlarger I bought in 1950 or 51, which is about the most basic, simple enlarger imanginable. For the h... of it I put my 50mm Componon on it, and it turned out great enlargements. Also remember, that as you get better at photography, your point of view about what is needed, is good, etc. will change. So you are not making a lifetime investment here. Whatever you buy now, in a few years you will almost certainly replace it. In the meantime, have fun, learn, and don't stress out. Stressing out comes when you turn pro - if you ever do.

-- Richard Newman (rnewman@snip.net), November 29, 1999.

You should know from start that if you buy a 35 mm enlarger with a glassless negative-holder, you will probably not be able to print the entire image and neither the black border. You can fix a black border later but you cannot get the entire image. This is a problem with for instance the Durst 305.

If you buy a medium format enlarger with a glass negative carrier you also need a lensboard made for the lens you choose (for a 50 mm you will likely need a recessed lensboard). Otherwise you will not be able to focus.

-- Peter Olsson (peter.olsson@lulebo.se), November 30, 1999.

Eeeh, of course my last sentences are true even if you buy a medium format enlarger with a GLASS-LESS negative holder. What i mean is that with a MF-enlarger with a glass-carrier you are sure to be able to print all the area, corner to corner and fram included, of your 35 mm images.

By the way, is your e-mail address wrong? Should it be "gunsmoke"?

-- Peter Olsson (peter.olsson@lulebo.se), November 30, 1999.