Forum people,

This subject line might not interest any of you but I feel strongly that God never wanted a captive audience

Once I wrote an article and sent to a religious paper (the only thing I ever sent that paper that was not published) entitled, "Funeral Evangelism." My thought was that a sermon should not be preached at a funeral on accepting Christ and then HOW to accept Him. To me that is forcing the Word on others at a time they came to pay their respects to the dead and not to hear a sermon.

The same holds true IMO about prayers in the public schools and at ballgames....etc. Prayer is offered individually to God who judges the intent of the heart. If someone wants to silently pray in school and/or at school functions he has the right and no one would complain. However, to organize an effort for public prayers out in the world (captive audience) ISTM to be for show and/or to prove a point. The point being they have legal rights.

-- Anonymous, November 16, 1999

Answers

Nelta....

Jesus would also not appreciate the way you try to shove your Neo- orthodox opinions down our throats either.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 1999

Nelta....

Just like all false teachers....I will confront them whenever and wherever possible.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 1999

Nelta......

Confronting a Neo-orthodox theologian with the word of God is about as futile and frustrating as trying to get Bill Clinton to give us the straight definition of the word "is."

I, and others, have confronted you with the word of God and your favorite hermeneutic is..."Yes....but..."

When confronted with the meaning of Greek words....you change the subject. When confronted with historical context....you change the subject.

I have looked over and over at your text and there is very little scripture.

Instead what we get is a bunch of ramblings....and "I think"....and "I believe"....and "I feel."

In this sense, you continue to show your true Neo-orthodox tendencies.

If you will notice.....more and more people are ignoring your posts....because this forum is about people who want to know what the Word says.

It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who will not let the Word of God be the final authority.

Now.....if you want to have meaningful debate....great....let's start with the authority of the Word of God.

It is time, in the name of honesty, that you confess your Neo- orthodox beliefs concerning the Word of God. Tell us why you do not accept the premise that the Scriptures are without error.

Tell us how you you make the distinction between the Bible "being the Word of God" and "containing the Word of God." Also, tell us the difference between "historical accuracy" and "religious accuracy."

I, personally, will have no discussion with you anymore...(except to point out your error)...until you can convince me that you fully accept the inerrancy of Scripture....that it is all inspired by God, that it is all historically accurate....and (this is the most important)......you will allow Biblical words to carry their meaning and thus allow them to be the final authority.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 1999

I got a better one for you D. Lee.....how about the many times both Jesus and the apostles went into the synagogues to preach???

Sounds like a captive audience to me??

-- Anonymous, December 29, 1999

"whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge;for we cannot stop speaking what we have seen and heard." Does a christian have any less right to free speech?

-- Anonymous, November 19, 1999

The point is Christ never forced Himself on anyone. In fact, people came to Him. Same with the apostles. Paul, in Athens, started where they were and taught about the true God but he didn't go where there was a captive audience and preach Jesus without their wanting to hear him.

I feel it is an insult to Christ to try to force Him down the throats of anyone.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 1999

The message of Christ needs to be preached. Because how can they be saved unless they hear the message? The crowd in Acts 2 was not a congegation wanting to hear the gospel instead they were a hostile crowd that was mocking the working of the Holy Spirit in the disciples. No one ever wants to truly hear that they may be lost and going to hell. But, if they are lost then preach it to them. We must have the urgency about our message- whether we like it or not- whether they like it or not. Jesus, did often preach and ram His message down throats of those who did not want to hear. The synagogue was a place Jesus and Paul both boldly shoved the gospel message down throats. In fact the hardest audience were the pharisees! They never really wanted to listen to Jesus, only to trap Him so they could kill Him.

Nelta, I totally disagree with your post. Yes, we must be loving... but we must also preach heaven and hell, Jesus or damnation. What else is there to preach. When I preach a funeral, I always give the gospel. I alway preach about the hope and salvation in Christ, but also the hopelessness and dispair if one rejects Christ. I cannot preach someone into heaven, but I can give them Jesus.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 1999

Hello again, Bob!

I don't think we will ever find where Jesus hunted people out. The Phar. came to question Him. In the Syn. people were allowed to stand and talk. That is different from going out and forcing people to listen to the gospel.

About funerals: People come there to pay respects to the dead. In my article I set the stage like this. A four year old died. His father, who was not a Christian was sitting there grieving for his son. He is not there to hear about the plan for salvation. Now, let me tell you what I think preaching a sermon at the funeral does. It forces people who are grieving to feel *put upon*. It relieves the preacher of going privately to that person later and telling him about Christ. In the 1stCen. people went about their daily lives and told people about Jesus.

Since there is no authority for the preacher system we have today...I suppose *rules* can be made up for anything they want to do. Lets do what Jesus said to do.. *go* to the lost, not trap them.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 1999

Danny, did it ever occure to you that you don't have to read my posts? Now if there were a rule on the list that everyone HAD to read my posts then maybe you would have a point.

Feel free to NOT click on what I write.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 1999

How about confronting the *false teacher* with the Holy Word of God and not your complaining words. ISTM that is what God would expect you to do.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 1999

>> I, personally, will have no discussion with you anymore...

Can I depend on this?

(except to point out your error)...until you can convince me that you fully accept the inerrancy of Scripture....that it is all inspired by God, that it is all historically accurate....and (this is the most important)......you will allow Biblical words to carry their meaning and thus allow them to be the final authority.

A lot of rambling here, Danny. As far as people ignoring me...that has never bothered me. I present what I see as the truth and if anyone wants to read my posts and comment fine...otherwise, it doesn't matter to me.

You have given no specifics in this post. But just to set the record straight...yes I believe in the in

-- Anonymous, November 21, 1999

Sorry, I hit the send button too soon.

>> I, personally, will have no discussion with you anymore...

Can I depend on this?

(except to point out your error)...until you can convince me that you fully accept the inerrancy of Scripture....that it is all inspired by God, that it is all historically accurate....and (this is the most important)......you will allow Biblical words to carry their meaning and thus allow them to be the final authority.>>

I believe all of this and don't understand why you even entertain the thought that I don't.

A lot of rambling here, Danny. As far as people ignoring me...that has never bothered me. I present what I see as the truth and if anyone wants to read my posts and comment fine...otherwise, it doesn't matter to me.

You have given no specifics in this post.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 1999

Is the great commission reserved for those who are seeking the truth? Did not Jesus say "go and make disciples. Jesus took advantage of the opportunities to teach people of his saving message, not just those who came and asked, but to those also whom He found. are w not instructed according to the scripture to make the most of every opportunity, for the days are evil.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 1999

Hello Bob,

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Two scriptures come to mind. First Jesus said, "Seek and ye shall find." Then, "Be ready to give an answer to those who ask of you the hope that is in you." Paraphrased. God put in each of us a desire to seek Him. Many, being dissatisfied and not understanding who they seek turn to drugs, strong drink....etc. God wants all to seek Him.

The discussion is not on refusing to tell others about Him (the great commission) but on forcing the gospel in a *captive audience* sitution.

I vaguely remember MANY years ago my father standing on the street corner, teaching about Jesus. People would gather around and listen. They were not a *captive audience* since they could walk on (and some did.) That is different from a funeral where people came to pay respects to the dead. Once when I was discussing this with an elder friend of mine, he made the remark, If they don't like it they can leave the funeral. Such reasoning is IMO a lack of love (second greatest commandment) and turning those who *must leave* away from Jesus. In other words *leave or listen.*

-- Anonymous, November 27, 1999

"Preach ther word; be instant in season, out of season, REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH ALL LONGSUFFERING AND DOCTRINE. For the Time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heasp to themselves teachers, having itching ears: and they turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." II Tim. 4:2-3.

Please note that this is a "solemlly Charged" Declaration by the Apostle Paul in the Presence of God. I never thought of "Preaching the word as cramming it down someones throat. Preachers are always (Like everyone) accountable to preach the word of God according tto the opportunities presented. We must also be careful not to give a false sense of comfort and security. There is no better way to deal with grief then to point someone to Christ. Now I will grant you that it is important, in what manner you preach the word. Under all circumstances and in all situations we must keep our focus, regardless what the rest of the world does. Let the light shine in the darkness of sin and death. We cannot cast out the darkness one cupful at a time. But we can flood the room with light.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

Hi Jack,

Isn't the scripture you quoted of Paul's conversation to Tim about his dealing with those who are already Christians? Take for instance vr. 4 says, "And will turn away their ears from the truth..." The subject under consideration was having a captive audience for those not in Christ.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

In context you make a good point, but this does not take away from the principle set forth by the Apostle to Evangelists. On the basis you are trying to establish it would mean these words could only apply to Timothy as they were addressed to him. Are you saying that an Evangelist is not told to be "Instant, in season, out of season" which I understand is "All the time, regardless of situations" or where he has the opportunity to get the word out. Wherever he goes he will run into people who will turn away their ears from the truth. If we run into that in the Churches, of course we must therin do that which Paul commanded as well. In II Tim 1:13 Timothy is told to "Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus" Does this only apply when Timothy is with the Church?

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

Nelta, I cannot agree that funerals are never times for presenting the saving gospel. In fact, I know of many funerals which have celebrated the joy of Heaven and offered this hope to others attending. More frequently these days it is even spelled out in requests for funerals. Some people who were not saved even get to know the Lord and obey Him because of what they hear.

This type of funeral should be the norm for Christian people who are ready to answer at any time questions about the hope we have. It's bound to raise questions when we do "not grieve as those who have no hope." I would hope that people at my funeral would not be surprised by one last evangelistic message. (You have supplied me food for thought in that regard.)

While I would suggest that anyone doing a funeral for unsaved persons be sensitive while talking to the families, I would not tie the hands and restrict anyone from presenting the Gospel in any form. One of the funerals mentioned above was for a high school youth who was the only one is his family who was saved, and within a few days of his funeral several family members were baptized, after realizing their need for Christ and His sacrifice.

In any regard, funerals and some of the other events you mentioned, are voluntary. There is not a compulsory attendance law for funerals, or sporting events. As for school, public prayer, even as one's own personal expression rather than a canned one, has been outlawed for years. Oh, BTW, if you look at the Bill of Rights, you'll see a protection of the right to practice religion not the right to keep someone else from practicing theirs just because it bugs you.

-- Anonymous, December 23, 1999

Hello BJ,

First let me say that I see nothing wrong with talking about the joys of heaven at any funeral. When my grandbaby died the preacher didn't talk about the joys of heaven but preached a sermon on getting into Christ. The problem was that everyone there was a Christian. There just has to be a sermon when a preacher stands before a group ISTM.

You said something about attendance at a funeral was not mandatory (?). I think that is a sad statement to make. People go to a funeral to pay their respects to the dead. Once an elder read my article on *Funeral Evangelism* and said if the family didn't like what was being preached about they could just leave. That is what I mean by forcing the gospel down the throat of those attending the service.

You also mentioned that we should be ready to give an answer to those who asked for the reason......Amen to that. But that is a far cry from having a family come to a funeral and get *attacked* with the gospel. That is what I said Christ would not be happy with. He, nowhere, went to a captive audience and taught.

IMO giving a sermon at the funeral is a way for the speaker to think he is doing his duty of reaching others instead of going to those people personally and teaching them the gospel. That way they don't feel they are being attacked.

I would say more about this but promished myself I would not post to this list for a month. See...I've already broken my promise to myself but feel I should answer something addressed to me.

Thanks for responding.

-- Anonymous, December 23, 1999

Hey Nelta, Talk about a captive audience

Matt 27:54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"

Acts 16:25-34 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everybody's chains came loose. The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped. But Paul shouted, "Don't harm yourself! We are all here!" The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-- you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God-- he and his whole family.

Acts 28:16 When we got to Rome, Paul was allowed to live by himself, with a soldier to guard him. Did this soldier ever hear what Paul was preaching?

What about Israel in the wilderness for those many yearsseems to me they were the ultimate captive audience.

Ezek 3:17-21 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

-- Anonymous, December 28, 1999

Nelta, Yes, funeral attendance is not mandatory. It is a social convention, kind of like a church building. It is neither a legal nor a spiritual obligation for Christians to "pay respect to the dead". The only obligation may be to share in bearing the burden of grief of those left behind. What better way of doing so than by also helping them to get rid of their burden of sin, if they still carry it? Surely, you would not disallow responsible people a privilege because a few people had abused it? Your contention that Jesus always waited for the religious leaders to come to Him, is interesting, but I remember several stories which at least implied that Jesus and His disciples acted in ways designed to provoke the religious leaders. Jesus did not just wait for them to ask their questions, He piqued their consciences when He could. While I don't agree with beating people in the head with a Bible, I don't think that most funeral services do. They can be a way to present the Gospel gently, complete with sin, Hell, love, atonement, obedience, Heaven and everything else to those who may not have heard it all in one package before. Of course, care should be taken for the sensibilities of unsaved family members (when available), but the presence of non-believers should not completely disqualify the presentation of Christ.

-- Anonymous, December 31, 1999