Preachers.....and Youth Ministers.....

Do us all a favor (those of you who do this)....and quit telling people that they can call God "Daddy."

My daughter and her husband who have been looking for a new church since May....thought they had found one.....until the preacher stood up and told everyone yesterday that this was acceptable. (This statement was just icing on the cake to other things that were contributing to their desire to look elsewhere.)

I'm hoping that better Greek scholars than myself such as Michael Demastus or Scott Sheridan wills share some insight on this....but let me give what small perspective I can.

To use the "Abba Father" scripture as support that we can call God "Daddy" is one of the most glaring hermeneutical errors that one can commit (i.e., placing a 20th century meaning on an ancient near eastern document...namely the Bible).

While "Abba Father" is a term of endearment.....it in no way comes close to comparing to our modern day equivalent of "Daddy." I'm not sure the ancients would even know what the word "Daddy" meant as it is more of a western civilization type term.

The ancients concept of "sonship" was far different than ours (which is the same mistake the J.W.'s make when they give their understanding of Jesus as the "son"....i.e. inferior to the Father).

I believe this "daddy" thing teaches our people the very wrong concept of God.

God's primary nature is His holiness (not His love). Without a holy God....there can be no love.

One of the things I'm convinced our worship services lack today is a realization of the awesomeness of God. Our worship services are more like "pep rallies."

Preachers....if you are saying these things than simply said...you are linguistically and historically presenting a false picture of God.

God....is first of all...our God. Yes, He is "our Father"....our counselor, friend....etc.

BUT GOD IS NOT YO DADDY!!!

-- Anonymous, November 15, 1999

Answers

Sam.....

Fine....but God is still not "Yo Daddy."

When Jesus taught His disciples the proper attitude for approaching God in prayer He did not say....."Hey Yo Pops.....Wuz Zup?"

Rather He said...."Our Father, who is in heaven...HALLOWED (i.e., holy, set apart, sinless, completely other)....be Thy Name."

There is simply absolutely no way to hermenutically and/or historically justify this abuse of the term "Abba."

KATHY.....

There is a vast difference between children and adults....but be that what it may.....I still under no circumstance could allow children to view God as "Daddy."

Sorry.....that's my problem....not yours.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, November 15, 1999

SAM.....

The "Yo Daddy"....thing is humor....lighten up.

But it is humor with a point. You see I believe we are talking a slippery slope here.

Today....it's "daddy"....what's it going to be next year..."pops?"

When it comes to reverance towards, and understanding the awesomeness of God.....I don't believe we can be over protective.

Over-reacting?? No...not at all. Just tired of preachers who don't take time to really study and research something before they blurt it out in the name of "pop culture."

Our pulpits for the most part today.....lack real scholarship.....and that's a shame.

-- Anonymous, November 16, 1999

This is nothing new, it has been done for years. I believe it to be man bringing God down to our level, or at least trying to. Yes, God did come down in Christ, but He did not come down to our level, for He never sinned. I remember a song by the Imperials that made this statement and the listeners have taken it further than it was intended.

Our society has replaced the mindset of "AWE OF GOD" with familiarity and a lack of respect for the Creator of all things. This lack of respect has creeped into the church, and the hardest part for me to handle is that the church doesn't realize it, and when you tell them or speak of the lack of respect to God, they then think you are some nut. (I wonder if that is how the prophets of old were treated? We know it was.)

We as the church, have become like the Israelites when they wanted a king rather than letting God be their king. They wanted to be like the rest of the nations, like the world. I see this type of thinking all the time in the church, and it is wrong. WE are to be different, we are to stand out. NOt because we are idots, fanatics, but because we are the called out ones. Called out of the world to live for Jesus Christ and show the world how to live, not be influenced by the world. Yes, we must live in the world, but we don't have to live like the world.

It is time for Godly preachers to rise up and speak the truth in AWE of GOD!!!!!

-- Anonymous, November 15, 1999

Diamonds have many faces, coins have different sides. It seems to me that the Bible teaches a many faceted God. And the tension as welss as the joy is balancing them in our worship of and living for Him. One of my favorite analogies is from C.S. Lewis in "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe". When the Children saw Aslan, they didn't know whether to run up and throw their arms around him or run away and hide.

I remember as a kid, hearing a youth minister pray, "Dear Daddy." I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now. But I never want to minimize the truth that we CAN call Him "Abba" Father. And SHOULD. And we can Fall down and cry "HOLY" and SHOULD! I think I shall take some time today and do both.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 1999

Let me start out by saying that I don't agree with nor stand it as accepting that we refer to God as "daddy". What I'm about to say though MAY (or may not) shed some light on the situation. Being a teacher by profession as well as in the kingdom I have taught MANY children & over the past 15+ yrs there has been a strain of understanding who God really is & I think a big part of that is simply because we have a generation (Or 2) of children being raised w/out an EARTHLY father. If the earthly father is supposed to be the spiritual head of the household where is the PROPER leadership & guidance for the children when daddy's gone? I have had numerous pre- school children who had "lost" their daddies ask me if God would be their daddy? I must confess that I responded with a ressounding YES & a hug because of their limited ability in understanding holiness & the hurt of rejection in their eyes. I've also prayed for a leadership in our church much like what I saw in NY when on my internship & that was elders who lovingly took on the "daddy" role for the children in the flock that had none. They even went to parent-teaher conferences in help & support of the moms who for obvious reasons were overwhelmed in the parenting dept. To me that is shepherding! Now I say again I don't advocate teaching the God=daddy thing but I didn't see any other choice @ the time & I really don't have an answer for these little ones other than another what I already shared. So maybe that lack of proper hermaneutics came from the church trying to deal w/ this social ill of fatherlessness.Yeah, I guess U can blast me for my answer, but U weren't there & U didn't see the need in the children's eyes!So go that extra mile w/ these kids before shouting the hermaneutical call! What would U tell a preschooler who's daddy up & left them & then try to teach about a heavenly FATHER?!?!?!n It leaves me lacking... just a thought, Kathy C.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 1999

Danny....

Thanks for the boost in my academic ability but I in no way am a "scholar" of Greek or Hebrew for that matter. But I do whole- heartedly agree with your assessment of the misuse of the term ABBA.

Couple bad hermeneutics with a bad understanding of the past as well and one has a perverted idea of God. The term father to the individual from a tribal clan carries a different idea for the one from a nuclear family unit.

A good discussion on this very topic is done in the book _The Trivialization of God: The Dangerous Illusion of a Manageable Deity_ Unfortunately I don't remember the author's name and the book was stolen from me (actually I loaned it out and the person never returned it, but I don't remember who I loaned it out to). We know which level of Dante's Hell that a person who steals a preacher's book goes to, don't we!

-- Anonymous, November 15, 1999

I've got to go with Sam Burton's perspective thing on this. The Father fulfills many roles in our lives. He is the Counsellor, but when I call him Counsellor I don't mean it in the same way as I meant it when I addressed Mr. Olds, my high school counsellor. He is the Judge, and the fact that Flip Wilson made a few bucks with his "Here come da' judge" bit doesn't lessen the fact of God's discerning authority. He is the Creator, but when we talk about someone who has a "creative mind", we don't mean to liken that person to Him.

What I'm trying to say is that earthly usages of words that also have heavenly usages don't automatically negate the appropriateness of those heavenly usages. Jesus tells us that we can come to God crying "Abba, Father". In doing so, He uses a term of endearment common to the day, in order to convey to us the tender love of the Father. Yes, if we make it flippant in our usage, then we are handling it incorrectly. But it is not inappropriate to say that we can approach the Father in the same spirit of trust and love and expectation of tenderness with which our little ones come to us.

Whenever we approach our Father, we come with a combination of feelings and attitudes within, and, depending on the situation or circumstance, one or more of those attitudes will be the dominant one at the moment. Sometimes we approach our Father with awe; sometimes with fear; sometimes with gratefulness; sometimes with neediness; sometimes with simple overflowing love. And sometimes with a closeness best seen in a son coming in joy to a daddy. At such times, it is not inappropriate to use the term.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 1999

I want to say amen to what Brother Danny has said in his post. Your insights to reach the very heart of a matter that is very serious but often neglected is clear in this post as well in the others that you have written. We are blessed indeed to have your words of admonishment available to us in this forum. I say amen to you and offer some words on the same subject as well. It seems to me that it would help us to review what the word of God has to say about the greatness and Holiness of God and His Holy name before we discuss the meaning of these words that are related to this issue of referring to God as daddy. In our prayers and devotions we are addressing the creator of the universe, our maker and our redeemer. In Psalms 100:4 we are told, Enter into his gates with thanksgiving [and] into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, [and] bless his name. We are told to reverence Gods name in Psalms 111:19 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend [is] his name. In reference to the name of God we are told that His name is holy and reverend. The word that is translated reverend is yare' pronounced {yaw-ray'} it means 1) to fear, revere, be afraid to stand in awe of, be awed 2.) to fear, reverence, honour, respect 3.) to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe 4.) to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe, 6. to make afraid, terrify. Thus Gods name is to inspire fear, astonishment, awe, reverence, honor and respect. The writer of Hebrews, whom I am convinced was none other than the apostle Paul, referred to the time when Moses was struck with this terrible fear and awe of God as he stood on the mount and said that he did exceedingly fear and quake. And applies this same idea of fear and awe to those of us that have received a kingdom which cannot be shaken.  Wherefore receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe: for our God is a consuming fire. A casual reading of both the Old and New Testaments would have prevented the use of the term daddy in reference to God.

The Psalmist teaches us again, Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, [and] for thy truth's sake. (Ps. 115:1). God is merciful to those who love His name, Look thou upon me, and be merciful unto me, as thou usest to do unto those that love thy name. (Ps. 119:132). God is jealous of His name, Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; (Eze. 39:25) Our God is the high and lofty one and his name is Holy, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. (Isa. 57:15). We cannot think that God reasons as men do in any matter unless he reveals similar reasoning in His word for we are told, For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. ( Isa. 55:8,9). We must understand that though God is our father our sins separate us from Him and we cannot therefore approach Him with a tongue that mutters perverseness. Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. ( Isa. 59:1-3). We must be careful unless we are as those describe by Isaiah, Doubtless thou [art] our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, [art] our father, our redeemer; thy name [is] from everlasting. O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, [and] hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. (Isa. 63:16,17).

The Hebrew word for father is 'ab {awb} meaning, 1) father of an individual; 2) of God as father of his people 3) head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan; 4) ancestor; 4a) grandfather, forefathers -- of person 4b) of people; 5) originator or patron of a class, profession, or art; 6) of producer, generator (fig.) 7) of benevolence and protection (fig.); 8) term of respect and honour; 9) ruler or chief (spec.)

We shall see presently that the term daddy does not even begin to approach being synonymous with this Hebrew word for father. And when we look at the definition of the Greek and even the English term for father we find that it is not a complete synonym of the either of them. The Greek term for Father is pater {pat-ayr'} which means, 1) generator or male ancestor; 1a) either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents; 1b) a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David; 1b1) fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation; 1c) one advanced in years, a senior; 2) metaph. 2a) the originator and transmitter of anything; 2a1) the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself; 2a2) one who has infused his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds; 2b) one who stands in a father's place and looks after another in a paternal way; 2c) a title of honour; 2c1) teachers, as those to whom pupils trace back the knowledge; and training they have received; 2c2) the members of the Sanhedrin, whose prerogative it was by virtue of the wisdom and experience in which they excelled, to take charge of the interests of others; 3) God is called the Father; 3a) of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler 3b) of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector; 3b1) of spiritual beings and of all men; 3c) of Christians, as those who through Christ have been exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father 3d) the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has united to himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also in his own divine nature; 3d1) by Jesus Christ himself; 3d2) by the apostles. From reading the above definition by Wighams Lexicon one can see that there is a vast difference in meaning between the Greek word for father and our English word daddy. Thus we can see that no one in Hebrew or in Greek, which is everyone in the entire History of the word of God, ever used a shallow word such as our word daddy in reference to God.

But what is even more interesting is that our Lord selected the term Hallowed in teaching His disciples how to Pray. In teaching us how to Pray our Lord purposely used the phrase Hallowed be thy name following the Greek term for father to show us the respect and sacred reverence that should be displayed when addressing our God and father. From the background and meaning of this word we see our Lords intention to teach us to address God in Prayer with terms that show respect and reverence toward God. Thus our Lord taught us to separate Gods name from profane things and consecrate His name as Holy when we Pray. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. The word for hallowed is hagiazo {hag-ee-ad'-zo}meaning to sanctify, hallow, to separate from profane things and dedicate to God or to consecrate things to God. So Gods name and therefore our attitude in addressing Him is to be hallowed or consecrated to God alone.

Now what is extremely interesting is the use of the term Abba in reference to God the father. The word Abba is of Aramaic origin and has the following history and meaning which is stated briefly. Abba = "father" 1) father, customary title used of God in prayer. Whenever it occurs in the New Testament it has the Greek interpretation joined to it, that is apparently to be explained by the fact that the Chaldee "ABBA" through frequent use in prayer, gradually acquired the nature of a most sacred proper name, to which the Greek speaking Jews added the name from their own tongue. According to these facts the term Abba was commonly added by the Greek speaking Jews when they addressed God because it had acquired the nature of a most sacred proper name. Therefore they were not satisfied that the Greek term pater was sufficiently sacred to address God and they added a word from their own tongue that had acquired this sacredness which they considered fitting to address Him. Even our Lord used this word in addressing His father. And therefore agreed with the common Greek speaking Jewish Practice of not being satisfied with the mere use of the Greek term pater and chose to add this sacred term abba to use a distinctly reverent form of the word father when addressing God. And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. (Mark 14:36). Paul even tells us that the Spirit has come into our hearts crying abba father,  And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts crying, abba father. (Gal. 4:6). And again in his letter to the Romans he uses this reverent and sacred term, For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. So even the Spirit teaches us to cry to God using this sacred form of the Aramaic word for father. Now I do not mean that God intends for us to speak Aramaic but it surely indicates that God expects us to use highly reverent, holy, and sacred forms in addressing Him.

The meaning of the word daddy is simply given as a synonym of father but the following definition of father shows that the term father is much more general in its meaning than the term daddy. The term daddy can and is only properly applied to an individual as the father of a child. It only encompasses this relationship. Yet the term father has many other uses and includes relationships that are broader and higher in scope than the word daddy. The term father is often used of high officials as the father of the city. No one would without humor say he is the daddy of the city. The term daddy has also taken on some disrespectful tones in such terms as big daddy. But the term father means:  a male parent. God esp as the first person of the Trinity. 3. Forefather 4. One deserving the respect and love given to a father. 5. An early Christian writer accepted by the church as an authoritative witness to its teaching and practice 6. Originator. Also source. 7. Priest-used especially as a title. 8. One of the leading men as (city fathers). Thus one can readily see that the term daddy cannot encompass all of the above relationships and is therefore not completely synonymous, even in our language, to the word father. For it cannot be used interchangeably with father as defined above.

For we do not say the city daddies but rather the city fathers. Even the Catholics would see the intended disrespect shown to one of their priest if someone were to call him daddy instead of father. As it used in the sense of originator we would feel awkward to say one is the daddy of modern radio when we meant that he is the father or originator of modern radio. We would not refer to the early church fathers as the daddies of the early Church without feeling the loss of respect in which we hold these men. Surely anyone can see how absurd it would sound if we said that our foredaddys were sound in the faith when we mean to say our forefathers were sound in the faith. It should be clear to any thinking person that the term daddy may be synonymous with a specific meaning in reference to our individual earthly fathers as an endearing term of a child. But when the child is grown he will most likely put away childish things. Yet even if he does not, the term does not carry the complete meaning and significance of the term father even in English. And it certainly is not at all synonymous with the biblical term abba nor is it even close to the meaning of the Greek terms use in the New Testament for father. Therefore by no stretch of the imagination does the term daddy encompass a respectful address toward God who is far more than simply an endearing father to us.

The term daddy does not carry with it the history of a sacred proper name for God that had gradually been acquired in the Chaldee tongue and carried into the Aramaic tongue and was used by our Lord and the apostle Paul. And the Spirit that has been sent into our hearts crying Abba father. The Spirit has not been sent into our hearts giving us the spirit of adoption crying daddy! The closest we can come to doing as our Lord and His apostles did in this matter is to simply bring this highly reverent word Abba into our language and add it to our use of the English word father. Just as they brought this Aramaic term into their common everyday Greek vernacular in order to show respect unto God. If we do not chose to do this then at least we must see to it that we use the most reverent word that our language provides for us to call God our father. And the word daddy is not it. For the term daddy has never taken on a sacredness that the word abba had in Aramaic. But our word father has surely taken on a measure of this sacred tone in our prayers and hence the strong aversion to replacing it with the more earthly and non-sacred term daddy among those who respect God as our Holy Father.

This is only one of many ways that those who seek for new and creative methods to make the Christian experience more meaningful fail miserably. Because they cannot simply replace a term that has gradually gained a sacred tone and meaning over years of such respectful usage with a term that they hope will suddenly acquire it because they think it conveys something that we have neglected to express. The idea that we have failed a generation that is practically fatherless because we do not teach them that God will be their daddy is ridiculous. The first century also had many children who were fatherless for various reasons some similar to our own yet Christ felt no need to use such tactics to correct the situation. We have always taught that God is our father and children are just as capable of understanding the term father, as they are to understand the term daddy. It is our insistence that children cannot understand and our efforts to make it so easy for them that prevent them from learning. I have a third and forth grade Bible class that can look up any word that they want in a Greek English Lexicon and learn its meaning. They can write the Greek Alphabet as well as the English. For anyone to suggest that they cannot distinguish the difference between the meaning and significance of daddy and Father would be received by them as an absolute insult. In fact they detest teachers who try to talk to them in what they call baby English. These children are not the exception. They are the rule. If you want to try some thing different that will shock your senses and preconceived opinions, try to teach the children something you have reserved for an adult class and see what happens.

The shallow sophistry and extreme carnality that is calling for these disrespectful attitudes toward God in our prayers and in our worship will do nothing more that prepare our congregations for a complete falling away from the truth.

Brethren, our Brother Danny is absolutely right. God is not to be called yo daddy by anyone who has the proper concept of Gods Holy name which is to be feared. He is to be held in awe even though because He is held it such awe courage and boldness will be required for us to approach Him.

Brother Danny has hit upon a base irreverence toward God that is underlying the failure in many congregations to develop true piety and genuine spiritual growth which in the long run leads to envy, strife, jealousy, and numerous other evils. Those who call God daddy will soon cease to even consider Him as their God. This has proven to be true among those whom I have known from years ago who followed this path. Not a single one of them is faithful to our Lord today. NONE. Be careful brethren for we are drifting instead of following heartily after the example and teachings of the Captain of our souls.

I pray to our Abba Father that His name will be praised, honored, and glorified by His Children forever and ever! Amen!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 16, 1999

'Scuse me, Danny and Lee, but if you look at what I wrote, I specifically said that flippancy in approaching God is never appropriate. You have set up a straw man and rather effectively knocked him down. The straw man of "Yo' Daddy" is NOT the way that the use of the idea "abba = daddy" is presented by any preacher in any pulpit that I have ever heard. It is presented not as a smart- mouthed disrespect, but as a term of endearment and love and awe and respect and confident hope. And that's the way Jesus uses it in Mark (during his passion in the garden), and that's the way Paul presents it in Romans and Galatians, both of which are speaking of the intimacy of the father/son relationship present between God and us because of our adoption as sons.

As far as historical use: I was privileged to have as good friends a family of Messianic Jews -- a father, a mother, and eventually a baby boy. It was a pleasure to see that child grow thru his childhood years and to see the warmth of his love for his father, as well as the warmth of love form father to son. Every time Zavti (the son) addressed Avram (the father) in my presence, it was with the word "abba". In fact, as he was learning to speak, it usually came out "abba-abba-abba-abba-abba". It was Zavti's common name for his father, and it had NOTHING to do with disrespect, or lowering one's view of the father in question, or cheapening the relationship.

I stand by my comments. On this one, Danny, I think you are over- reacting and making an argument against something that is commonly not even there.

As far as historical use

-- Anonymous, November 16, 1999

Brother Loveall:

I write the following in response to your post which I will quote from with my comments:

Scuse me, Danny and Lee, but if you look at what I wrote, I specifically said that flippancy in approaching God is never appropriate.

My post was not written specifically to counter anything that you had said but to establish that the term daddy has no equivalent in the scriptures. We are objecting, just as you have done to flippance in approaching God and we are arguing that the use of the term daddy is just the kind of flippancy that you objected to in your previous post.

Yet you accuse us of setting up a straw man with these words:

You have set up a straw man and rather effectively knocked him down. The straw man of "Yo' Daddy" is NOT the way that the use of the idea "abba = daddy" is presented by any preacher in any pulpit that I have ever heard.

Now the fact that we disagree with you and others that using the term daddy in reference to God is being disrespectful to Him is proof that we are not struggling with a straw man as you imagine. The issue is a real one. Is the use of the term daddy in our addressing our God acceptable? Is the word abba equivalent to our English word daddy. I have affirmed and offered evidence to prove that it is not and you ignored that evidence. This is the issue between you and us on this matter and your words prove that it is not merely a straw man. That we have rather effectively knocked down the weak arguments in favor of this irreverent approach to God I do not doubt. Your words are nothing more that a string of affirmations that this approach to God is acceptable to God without offering any Scriptural support whatsoever that such is the truth.

Then you imply, but do not prove, that our Lord used a term equivalent to the English word daddy and that Paul represented a similar word in Romans and Galatians with these words:

It is presented not as a smart- mouthed disrespect, but as a term of endearment and love and awe and respect and confident hope. And that's the way Jesus uses it in Mark (during his passion in the garden), and that's the way Paul presents it in Romans and Galatians, both of which are speaking of the intimacy of the father/son relationship present between God and us because of our adoption as sons.

Now Jesus used the term Abba which we have shown with lexicographical evidence that abba and daddy are not even close to being synonymous. You have simply ignored that evidence and attempted to leave the false impression, without offering any proof, that Jesus spoke a word similar to our English word daddy. The word abba was used to refer to individual earthly fathers in Jewish families and it also carried a history of sacred usage in reference to God that our English word daddy does not possess. The word daddy until recently in some of the Churches has never been used as a proper and sacred address toward God. So the fact that the Hebrew word abba was also used to address God as well as earthly fathers does not in any way imply that our English word daddy can be properly used in the same fashion for the two words are not equivalent. For this very reason the word abba has not been translated as daddy for the two words are not used in the same way and have not the same meaning daddy does not carry the same sacred significance that abba does. Therefore our Lord did not address God as daddy in his Prayer in the Garden. Instead he referred to him using a word that carried not only the endearing term expressed to a loving father but one that also had a long history of sacred usage in private and public worship toward God. And the evidence that we have presented shows that the mere use of the Greek term pater for father was not satisfactory to the Greek speaking Jew but they felt compelled to add their familiar and sacred term abba to it in the same breath as they spoke to God. I can assure you that you will not find a faithful Jew even today that would use the English term daddy in reference to God. Go to the synagogue and recommend that they approach God in English using the word daddy that has absolutely NO HISTORY of such usage and see what the reaction would be. I have a Jewish friend and I asked him if such would be acceptable in their worship and He was appalled that anyone would even consider such an idea!

Now lets consider your discussion of the historical usage of the word abba which I now quote form your post and examine;

As far as historical use: I was privileged to have as good friends a family of Messianic Jews -- a father, a mother, and eventually a baby boy. It was a pleasure to see that child grow thru his childhood years and to see the warmth of his love for his father, as well as the warmth of love form father to son. Every time Zavti (the son) addressed Avram (the father) in my presence, it was with the word "abba". In fact, as he was learning to speak, it usually came out "abba-abba-abba-abba-abba". It was Zavti's common name for his father, and it had NOTHING to do with disrespect, or lowering one's view of the father in question, or cheapening the relationship.

I notice that you do not bother to examine the historical usage of the word daddy in worship for you are keenly aware that it does not have a history of sacred usage in reference to God. This you have done probably because you were proceeding with the assumption, not yet proven to be true, that abba is completely equivalent to and is used in exactly the same way as our English word daddy. Now that it is not equivalent is obvious to those who will take the time to consider the historical usage of these two words side by side. The word abba was used not only in reference to the Jewish earthly fathers but it also had a clear history of sacred usage in the worship of God as well. Like our English word father which has a long history of being used in much the same way as the Jewish word abba. But the English word  daddy has been historically used exclusively in reference to our earthly fathers and has never, until recently, been used in worship to God. It therefore does not properly have this usage in English. It therefore does not carry the sacred and holy, or hallowed tones that the Hebrew word abba and the English word father historically express.

You even alluded to this in your previous post with these words:

What I'm trying to say is that earthly usages of words that also have heavenly usages don't automatically negate the appropriateness of those heavenly usages.

But the word daddy has no heavenly usage as you affirm without the slightest attempt to prove. Can you show from the etymology or history of the word daddy that it has ever been commonly used as a reverent address to God in any time in the history of the English language? If it does not have a history of such usage then you should not be so shocked and surprised to find that its use in the worship of God is offensive to those who hold the name of God to be Hollowed. In fact God himself is offended at such because all prayer must include hallowing of Gods name. (Matthew 6). Why was the sudden change from a word that is properly used to refer to our earthly fathers as well as addressing God in worship to the use of a word in addressing God that has a history of usage in reference exclusively to our earthly fathers necessary? The word father was working well for both. Are we trying to convince everyone that God is like our earthly fathers? Are we implying that the term daddy is more endearing than the term father is? There is simply no equivalent word in the Old or New Testaments to our English word, daddy. Abba is surely not equivalent as our evidence shows and you have completely ignored. Now the fact that the Jews used the term abba in reference to both God and their earthly fathers is only evidence that they did exactly what we do when we use the term father in referring to both God and man. But it is not evidence that supports the idea they used a word that was commonly used exclusively in reference to their earthly fathers such as does our English word daddy and procured it as a proper term in reference to God. There is no example of such in the entire word of God both Old and New Testaments. In fact such has not been done in the History of both Jewish and Christian worship until now in the irreverent, impious, and materialistic, godless 20th Century America . I can only thank God that such actions do not represent the majority among us. It will not be seen where I worship without much controversy!

But your discussion of the historical usage of abba is nothing more than a reference to your personal experience with a 20th century Jewish family and the fact that the young boy, Zavti, called his father, Avram, by the term abba. All of which says nothing about the historical usage of the word abba in its sacred usage in the worship of God. In fact it is interesting that the same word that is used to refer to God in worship is also used in reference to earthly fathers. But such is not the case with the word daddy for it has a history of exclusive use in reference to earthly fathers and never a history of reference to God. Your argument from the Jewish family is in no way an examination of the history and significance of the word abba. It would surely have been more convincing if you could tell us of having attended their Jewish worship in the synagogue and your having heard them interchangeably use the word Hebrew word Abba and the English word daddy when referring to Jehovah in their worship. I do not think that you will find such to be the case. I am not sure you could get any Jew that was not an infidel to refer to God in prayer with the English word daddy. That we have Christians who with out cautious reflection just institute an innovation contrary to the entire tenor of the word of God, without any concern for offending their God in heaven or their brethren in the worship is but an indication of their spiritual poverty!

Then you tell us that you stand by your comments with these words:

I stand by my comments. On this one, Danny, I think you are over- reacting and making an argument against something that is commonly not even there.

That is fine that you should stand by your comments but while you are standing there why not give them a good looking over and examine them for weakness. For they surely do not speak the truth. I do not mean that your intent is to lie but I mean that they are not in harmony with the facts. I only ask that you consider the fact that our term daddy is not equivalent to the Hebrew abba. And daddy is a word that has historically been reserved to our fathers and has never been considered for use in approaching God. Therefore it does not have the high and holy connotations of our word father and the Hebrew word abba and therefore cannot be acceptable to publicly express the appropriate reverence, awe and fear of our hearts to God. In fact the word daddy does not express awe in any sense.

Brother Danny is not over-reacting to some insignificant matter but is rather reacted appropriately to discourage blatant disrespect and dishonor toward our God. For he has rightly exposed the sudden appropriation of a term that has always been exclusively used in reference to men and never in worship to God as a substitute for the perfectly suitable term father. His keen awareness that this word has throughout the history of the English language been used to reverence and adore God is clearly evidence that his senses have been properly exercised to discern good and evil.

You say that we are arguing against something that is not even there. If there were no one using the term daddy in reference to God there would be no issue. But the fact that such is being done is conclusive proof that the problem is real. However I agree with you that it is not, at least in Alabama, a common practice. Our arguments are merely to give sufficient reasons that it should not be practiced by the faithful at all and thus it may never become common. At least that is my fervent prayer and hope.

I pray that we will seek to show God the respect and honor that his name is due.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 16, 1999

From the Jewish mind, the name of God was so hallowed and so revered that they would not even name Him. In fact, they would often leave out letters, ex- G-d, to honor His most holy name. To the Hebrews, Yahweh is the Great I Am- in fact He said so when He confronted Moses. This was keep as the Torah was written and copied. Thus it is translated Lord in our Bibles. Jesus, changed this, to the extent that He refered to God as Abba which is translated "daddy" as a term of endearment. This thought was alien to the Jews of the day. Most of them would never refer God to such. But, He taught otherwise. What is the implication for us? Perhaps, we are too formal with God at times. And rather spewing out a King James type prayer, maybe we should talk with God, like a son would to his earthly father. We may be uncomfortable with "Yo big daddy, wutz up?" to the gang member in Harlem- it is a start. I think this issue is a matter of maturity. Yes, we must totally give God all the Holy and Majestic reverence we can give- yet at the same time just talk with him- like Adam did in the cool of the day in the garden. None of us would all agree with this issue- is there any middle ground?

Just thinking outloud.

-- Anonymous, November 16, 1999

"The "Yo Daddy"....thing is humor....lighten up"

ME, lighten up? After I've finally had the lovely experience of being Saffolded? I've never in my life had to be told to lighten up. Most often it's me doing that telling to someone else. Sorry to have seemed so heavy-handed.

"But it is humor with a point. You see I believe we are talking a slippery slope here. Today....it's "daddy"....what's it going to be next year..."pops?" When it comes to reverance towards, and understanding the awesomeness of God.....I don't believe we can be over protective."

Actually, I think we can. There are plenty of preachers who work hard at making God almost inaccessible (not saying that you are one of those) in His awesomeness.

Please don't misunderstand. I take a back seat to no one in proclaiming the "high and lifted up"-ness of our Father. I have preached sermons and taught lessons to make sure that people understand that they're not just dealing with Someone or Something that they can treat casually, as tho they belong to a fan club.

BUT:

Perhaps you'll remember, as a child, falling off a bike, or falling out of a tree, or being chased by a dog, or being hurt in some other way. When you came to your father, you didn't need an "awesome, high and lifted up" ruler and judge who would thunder from the mountain, "Why weren't you more careful! You're supposed to do it THIS way! That was the wrong thing to do! I'm your father; treat me with respect and awe!" He is certainly in a position to be able to say those things, and in many if not most situations, those are the thigns he should say. But that's not what you need right now. You need a father who will "gather you under his wings", who will nurture and heal you, who will dry your tears, who will be your "refuge and strength." At that time, you need the Father who weeps over Jerusalem, more than the Father who thunders from the mountain. It is reassuring to me to know that the Holy and Lifted Up One, of whom I am in awe, is also the One Who stoops down to meet me when I need him that way. Not because I demand it or demean Him, but because He loves me.

"Our pulpits for the most part today.....lack real scholarship.....and that's a shame."

You'll get no argument from me there.

-- Anonymous, November 17, 1999

Brother Kelly:

Concerning your post wherein you claim that the Hebrew term abba can be properly translated daddy as a term of endearment. I quote the words from your post to which I refer as follows:

Jesus, changed this, to the extent that He refereed to God as Abba which is translated "daddy" as a term of endearment.

The Hebrew term has not been nor can it be properly translated, as daddies for the two terms are not even closely comparable. The term abba has never been translated as daddy by any scholar neither has any of the reputable translations of the scriptures into English, not just the King James version, so translated it. When you say that Jesus refer to His father as daddy as a term of endearment you are manifestly at extreme variance with all of the Lexicons and the best and brightest scholarship of both past and present generations. Now this does not mean that you are wrong but it does mean that you should offer justification and evidence to prove that the word abba is equivalent to our English word daddy and therefore can be so translated. This you have not attempted to do. We are left only to accept your assertion just because you have made it, but not because you have established with evidence that all of past and recent scholarship is wrong and you are correct in your discovery that the Hebrew word abba is translated daddy. You tell us that the Hebrew word abba IS translated daddy without telling us exactly where you saw it thus translated so that we can use that reference to go read it for ourselves to see if it has ever been so translated. Could you tell us where any reputable scholar has so rendered the word? Can you tell us where any Lexicon so explains the word to be equivalent to our English word daddy.

Now do not misunderstand, Brother Kelly, I accept your point that we can and should be able to approach our God with the endearing affections that we have for our earthly fathers, provided that our experience with such fathers has truly been endearing. But the term abba includes much more than mere endearment and has a long history of sacredness attached to it. For this very reason the Greek Jews were not satisfied to use the Greek term pater alone when approaching God in Prayer, our Lord himself is included in this, but added to it the term abba which carries with it far higher connotations than mere endearment.

While we are allowed to feel endearing toward God, we are not allowed to lose our awe and respect form him in order to express it. The term father is just as endearing as the word daddy but it has the advantage of a long history of sacred usage as does the word abba which the word daddy does not have.

Now if your think that the term daddy has any positive connotations for those members of street gangs in this country you may want to think again. Many of them have a completely negative view of both fathers and daddies so referring to God in such disrespectful terms, as big daddy would not solve the problem. They would not be won over to the Gospel of Christ by one who treats them as being too stupid to understand that God is their father in a much higher sense than their drunken, abusive and self destructive daddies. In fact you may make more progress with them if you ignore this idea of Gods fatherhood and begin by impressing them with his strength and power. Then later show them that he is also the father that they never had whose promises are always kept and who will never leave them or forsake them. But the discussion of street gangs is but a RUSE. For it has nothing to do with the fact that daddy is not a correct or appropriate translation of the term abba. Now I have offered evidence of this in my first post concerning this subject. And everyone just ignores that evidence and makes affirmations such as yours that abba is translated daddy without showing any proof that it has ever been so translated by anyone with the scholastic credentials to make it a reasonable that such is and acceptable translation.

Let me end by telling you that what I have written concerning your post is in the interest of truth and not just for the sake of disagreeing with you, brother Kelly. I have been searching, in fact, for some subject on which you and I can agree because I have respect for you as a brother in Christ. I believe that in the long run we agree that we should be able, as Christians to approach God as a loving father without at the same time losing that respect and awe that his hollowed name invokes. By using the term father we are able to do both because the word father expresses not only the endearment of a child but also the recognition of the awe inspiring authority and strength of a father that makes that endearment only the more intensive. But when we substitute the word daddy we gain nothing in the feeling of endearment, for the word father carries that as well, but we lose completely the concept of the awe and respect that the word conveys. For the idea of AWE does not exist at all in the word daddy which is a term that has historicall been used exclusively in reference to earthly fathers and never in the awe inspiring worship of God. Now therefore there is no reason to make this unnecessary and completely inaccurate translation of the word abba so that we can express endearment at the expense of expressing the Holiness and Greatness, and dominion of God over our lives.

I pray that our Lord will help us to understand these things.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 17, 1999

Lee, although I do agree with 99% of what you said, there are still issues that must be dealt with. I am not in no way advocating the disrespectful use of God Most Holy and Sacred name, but that name also for the believer is to be more intimate. Our relationship with God is to be more intimate. The term abba is not only an Aramaic term for Father, but it means Papa or daddy as well. THus, when Jesus prayed it was an intimate prayer to the Father. Rienecker and Rogers state, "This was the language of the children and a daily but polite form of address to the father (Mussner;TDNT; CBB)" (p.511). Also, Keener the author of the IVP Bible Background Commentary states, "Abba, is the Aramaic word for "Papa" a term of great intimacy and affectionate respect. It was normally the first word a child would utter, but adults could use it for their fathers as well, and students of their teachers. Perhaps, because it implied intimacy, Jewish people never used it of God (though they did call Him Heavenly Father)except in an occasional parable by a charismatic teacher" (p.177). Now, we can dismiss Keener as one man's comments but Rienecker does hold some weight along with his sources.

Again, I am not trying to disregard nor disrespect the Lord God Almighty. But, all I am trying to say is, if one does refer to God in his/her prayers as Papa or Daddy- they are not disrespecting God's name. Perhaps if anything, they are honoring God by giving Him the due affections that He alone deserves.

-- Anonymous, November 17, 1999

Brother Kelley:

I now quote your words and comment respectfully upon them as follows:

The term abba is not only an Aramaic term for Father, but it means Papa or daddy as well. THus, when Jesus prayed it was an intimate prayer to the Father. Rienecker and Rogers state, "This was the language of the children and a daily but polite form of address to the father (Mussner;TDNT; CBB)" (p.511). Also, Keener the author of the IVP Bible Background Commentary states, "Abba, is the Aramaic word for "Papa" a term of great intimacy and affectionate respect. It was normally the first word a child would utter, but adults could use it for their fathers as well, and students of their teachers. Perhaps, because it implied intimacy, Jewish people never used it of God (though they did call Him Heavenly Father)except in an occasional parable by a charismatic teacher" (p.177). Now, we can dismiss Keener as one man's comments but Rienecker does hold some weight along with his sources.

I truly appreciate your actually taking the time to at least attempt to prove your assertion that the word daddy is equivalent to the word abba by quoting some authorities that appear on the surface to agree with your assessment of these words. I really respect those who show evidence for their assertions. By doing this you have made this discussion more profitable for all of us. I thank you very much for your efforts.

Having said that however, the authorities that you quote do not compare the word daddy to the word abba. There is no doubt that this word was the Aramaic word for papa and that it was a term of great intimacy and affectionate respect. In fact in this respect it indeed has characteristics in common with our English word father and our English word daddy as well. However, the word has connotations connected with it so that it was in fact used commonly in the worship of God as the source, author, and creator of all things as the authority that I quoted established. In this respect it holds absolutely nothing in common with our word daddy which has never been expressed in sacred and holy worship without objection during the entire history of the word. In this aspect it is completely harmonious and equivalent to our word father but totally different to our word daddy. Our word daddy does share the endearing tones addressed to earthly fathers but it lacks the awe and high honor and respect that the word abba conveys. So that abba like our word father could be used in both every day usage and in the worship just as our English word father is capable of expressing. But the word daddy does not have any sacred usage connected with it. And while it can be thus used in an endearing way it cannot be used to express a high level of awe, honor, respect and adoration due to our God and the creator and originator of all things and the Judge of all men.

Therefore when you assert that the word abba can mean daddy as well as papa your authorities that you have quoted do not support that contention. They do not address the word daddy at all as being an appropriate translation of the word abba. In fact the sources that you quote do not even mention the word daddy. Your argument is based on the idea that the English word daddy has all of the same characteristics of the word abba but nothing that you have shown us even discusses the word daddy. I can see that one may conclude that the term papa is equivalent to the word daddy and your sources compare the word papa to the word abba and therefore they are the same but this argument assumes much that it does not prove. Your sources come closer to showing that abba is equivalent to our word father than demonstrating that it is anything like our word daddy which they do not mention at all. They show that the word abba is quite like our word father but say nothing of its of its being similar to daddy. Keener is in conflict with other authorities, one of which I quoted above in that he states the following: Perhaps, because it implied intimacy, Jewish people never used it of God (though they did call Him Heavenly Father) except in an occasional parable by a charismatic teacher" (p.177). For Wigham states the following about this word Abba. Whenever it occurs in the New Testament it has the Greek interpretation joined to it, that is apparently to be explained by the fact that the Chaldee "ABBA" through frequent use in prayer, gradually acquired the nature of a most sacred proper name, to which the Greek speaking Jews added the name from their own tongue. Keener even admits that the Jews called God their heavenly father using this term abba which is in direct conflict with his own testimony in the same sentence that the  Jewish people never used it of God. Now if they NEVER used it of God there cannot be any exception such as using the word to call God their heavenly Father. In light of his obvious and admitted self-contradiction on this matter Mr. Keeners witness is at least suspect and those scholars that contradict him stand on firmer ground. Therefore I agree with you that we can and should dismiss Kenner. Concerning Rienecker and Rogers we do not dismiss them in fact in our last post we agree completely with them that the word abba was used in everyday live of the Jewish child and adult but which is surely similar to how our word daddy is used. However, they do not comment upon its use in the worship of God for which it was also suitable and had the appropriate history and background of such sacred usage that would make it acceptable. Now this characteristic of the word abba is very different from our word daddy. Which is a word that has never been used in respect to deity especially to our Great God in heaven and therefore does not have anything in its usage and meaning that approaches the awe inspiring sentiments appropriate to worshiping God. Our word father on the other hand contains both the endearing attitudes toward a father and the holy and sacred usage since God has throughout our history been referred to by it. The word daddy falls short of this very important second sense of the high and holy respect and awe that is due to our God. Now Rienecker and Rogers do not address this meaning and use of abba. Therefore they have no bearing on the issue at hand.

So we are still waiting for someone to establish that the word abba can be translated daddy. No one has ever so translated it, unless it is you brother Kelley , but please think carefully before so doing for you may be overlooking some attributes of the word abba that cannot be found in the word daddy and will be in great error in such a translation. It has been in every place translated with our word father which fits exactly and causes no shocking sense of disrespect in the minds of sincere and good men and women who are our brothers in Christ. Why use a term destine to create discord when we have a word that meets the requirements exactly and has the distinct advantage of maintaining the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace? Are we trying to sow discord? I do not charge you with such brother Kelley. If some preacher wants to experiment with these things let him do so for himself without deliberately ignoring the fact that honest souls may severely object to this in the public worship. Why must all of the rest of us be forced to listen to a pray to which we cannot say amen at the end of it? I fear that todays preachers are more interested in sensationalism in the pulpit and that this was used more for it shocking effect than a sincere attempt to lead us to approach God with a word that is more endearing. For the word daddy is not more endearing than the word father. I do not accuse you of this Brother Kelley. I know that you hold God in high esteem and word do nothing just for its sensational effect but I have seen preachers who thrive on such sensationalism because doing these things is much easier than developing excellent expository sermons that uplift and edify the Church. This use of daddy in worship to God has not edified the whole Church. If it is not stopped it is sure to promote discord among Brethren and by this alone it is more a tool of Satan than a useful term to worship the Father. Therefore those who do this are not "honoring" God but are rather creating unnecessary discord among Brethren.

Having said all of the above, it still stands that the word abba cannot be and for that reason has not ever been translated daddy for the terms are not equivalent.

I hope that my response to you has been respectful though contradictory to your last post on this issue. I know that you do not advocate disrespect toward God our Father. We all agree that His name is hallowed. But the term daddy, though endearing, is not hallowed in any of the history of its usage and should not be used in addressing God who is forever holy. The term father is just as endearing and it has a long history of use in the worship of God and therefore has been hollowed for this purpose. Let us follow after that which leads to peace and demonstrates, without any question, great respect toward God. Can we agree to this?

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 17, 1999

Lee, I wholeheartedly agree with you. In fact, I too am not comfortable with the word "daddy" in formal public worship. But, if one was to go to his/her prayer closet and need to express themselves- is daddy irreverent? Or should we use the term Papa? There are times I feel that we tend to get too formal and we babble like pagans. A close intimate relationship witht the Father can lead one in private to call Him Papa or even daddy. In my life, the word daddy does have the same indearment as Papa. I love my earthly father very much, thus I call him dad or when I was little I called him daddy. Not out of irreverence, but because I used the term to say I consider us very intimate. I can tell my dad things that I cannot tell other people (except for my wife of course). But, on earth my dad is my best male friend. The same should be for God-even more so. I am not suggesting that everyone change doctrine or even hermeneutics over this issue. To me it is a matter of the heart. I do not want to be irreverent to God the Father, yet I want to be very intimate with Him. I personally would not teach people to say daddy, because- you are right- it can cause people to disregard the Holy Reverence we are to have with God. But, the question I have is this... am I wrong to think of God as daddy in my personal one on one devotions and prayers to Him. When I pray I refer to God in His due Holiness. But, can there be a time for intimate affections that lead one to call Him Papa or the modern term daddy?

-- Anonymous, November 18, 1999