I have a question that has been plaguing me for several months. I am concerned about the things that go on in church services and in the camps during the music time. I am seeing more and more of the rock music with christian words, but I still hear the world in the music. I see the kids and adults alike wiggling and moving to the music. How much movement is too much. I know that David came dancing and leaping, but I don't see that that is the same as I see in some of the youth services.

I really don't want to throw the baby out with the water, but I don't want the world to come into the church anymore than it already is. I hope that this is getting across what I mean.

Thanks!!

-- Anonymous, November 06, 1999

Answers

For what it's worth.....I agree with everything Darrell Combs has written.

Darrell....I realize that could be bad for your career (having me agree with you)....deal with it!!

Good job!!!

Danny

-- Anonymous, November 09, 1999

A.Kelley.....

If people would raise their hands in my congregation I would say....."The bathroom is down the hall and to the left."

Ha!!!!

-- Anonymous, November 09, 1999

Roy -- you are certainly correctin worrying about too much of the world coming into the community of believers. But if we look around, we see that it has been that way for years, in music and in other things.

For instance, the words to a number of the hymns we find in our hymn books were written to be sung to common bar and drinking songs. That was done so people, who knew the tunes already, could sing the hymns. That certainly is allowing the world into the church ... but maybe in a positive way ???

When it comes to music in the 20th (almost 21st) century, the same can be said. Yes, much of the more modern stuff reflects the current trends of music in the world today ... just as the hymns did many years ago. As a campus minister, I work with young people every day who just won't attend services where the music is "traditional" (for lack of a better word). Is that wrong of them? Maybe so ... but it is a fact. If we are going to reach these folks (and many others even of my age ... 45) then we need to reach them where they are, then move them to where they need to be.

The message of the Good News must never change, but the method of presenting that same "old old story" might. Music styles, drama, audio/visual, these are all being used today ... and people are being won to the Lord.

The worship service certainly shouldn't become a circus ... and yes, I have seen some of them do just that. But music styles change, and can be used to reach the lost for the Lord.

Now ... I don't know how David danced either, but my impression is that it might have been a bit more free than the swaying I've seen in some services and camps. I'm not talking about pew-jumping mania ... just "getting into the music" as my college students would put it.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, November 06, 1999

IF we are to be people of the Word, and that is to be our guide - not our personal likes/preferences or dislikes, then the Bible gives a great deal of liberty on this subject.

In some CC/CoC, you would never see a hand raised during worship, but in that same service you will see people with their heads bowed - eyes closed and hands folded. Which one is more Biblical? Actually, the Bible shows us that people stood and prayed, laid and prayed, sat and prayed, raised hands and prayed - but the Bible does not show us with anyone folding their hands, closing their eyes, and bowing their heads. The first time we see such a model is in seventh century monasticism. Hmmmmm.

Yet, we get hung up on how "physical" people get during worship. The one thing the Bible tells us is that our WHOLE BODY is created to worship our Father. Does this mean that we are free to be naked in worship (only in the shower) or does it mean we can disrupt another from worship intentionally - NO! But it does mean that hands raised and bodies a "wriggling" aren't necessarily a bad thing at all - in fact, it may just be dynamic worship.

-- Anonymous, November 06, 1999

Roy, I share your serious concerns about our worship services. You have raised valid questions. Proponents of the "praise worship" will bombard you with words about how the Bible grants us liberty in this area. Thus, we should keep our mouths shut about what they have done to our worship services. It is interesting to me that these same people grant us absolutely no liberty in demanding we want another style of worship: one which leads to a more reverent atmosphere. Uninformed and unaware, they toss our hymn books out. It's a no win proposition to try to even discuss this issue with them. Perhaps we must wait until they, like Esau, are crying in their porridge, finally aware of the musical birthright they have sold.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 1999

As one who is a proponent of praise worship, I certainly take offense to your post. I, for one (and I know of many others) will grant you the liberty to use whatever "style" of worship you wish in "your" worship service. We need all types. I had a lady in the congregation in SC who could not participate in the blended style we used there ... about 60% hymns and 40% choruses. I directed her to another congregation that used hymns 100%. No problem at all.

I also have never asked anyone to "keep their mouths shut." Maybe some have, and if you have had that experience, I am sorry. We need to share ideas with one another ... that's the only way we will continue to grow.

You may have the opinion that a more traditional worship style if more reverent ... I would disagree. Praise-style services are very reverent ... I guess that depends on your definition of the word reverent. When I sing songs that come straight from the Scriptures ... that lift up the Lord ... that bring me into contact with Him, then that is reverence.

I, for one, am not "uninformed and unaware." It is blanket statements like that and the others made in the above post that cause problems within the body. Yes, it is a matter of liberty. If you are a proponent of praise style worship, great! Let those who enjoy traditional worship do their thing. As well, if you enjoy traditional worship, that's great! The same goes for you -- allow those who enjoy praise style to do their thing.

Remember ... they aren't "our" worship services ... they belong to God. Whichever style we choose, let it be a sweet offering to the Lord!

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, November 07, 1999

There, you see, that's the reason I don't post more replies than I do. Someone else, usually Darrell or Michael, beats me to it and says the things I would have said, only much better than I would have said them.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 1999

My Jesus, my Savior, Lord, there is none like you. All of my days, I want to praise the wonders of your mighty love My Comfort, my Shelter, Tower of Refuge and Strength, let every breathe -- all that I am -- never cease to worship you. Shout to the Lord, all the earth. Let us sing power and majesty, praise to the King. Mountains bow down and the sea will roar at the sound of your name. I sing for joy at the works of your hands. Forever, I'll love you. Forever, I'll stand. Nothing compares to the promise I have in you.

-Darlene Zchech

Not worshipful? Not reverent? Unable to move the spirit in man?

-- Anonymous, November 07, 1999

'Course, it would be nice if this STUPID PROGRAM KEPT MY HARD RETURNS WHERE I PUT THEM!!!

Sorry, just venting.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 1999

OOOOOOOOO-WEEEEEEEE! Did I hit a nerve! I received e-mails saying people who don't like it [praise music] should just leave. I think I'll stay and expose those who want to Pentecostalize our brotherhood, and who, in the self-interest of attendance at any expense [pragmatic evangelism] throw out what is edifying and put in what is cathartic.....i.e., there are standards we should uphold in our worship music which you preacher boys are totally disregarding for your own personal interests.

Disruptive? Divisive? Oh, no! When you're squandering my inheritance...my musical inheritence, I'm going to speak up. When you replace good theology with bad theology, I'm going to speak up. When you dumb down church music without thought of repercussions, I'm going to speak up. When Duane has such an excellent forum for discussion of topics such as this, I'm going to speak up. It is the long term impact on our services that this change will affect.

BTW, all of your posts to me have been contradictory; you haven't argued why this music venue is so important. Haven't thought about it? Or is it simply what you perceive the people want, and you're afraid not to give it to them.

I long for a reasoned discussion on this issue. It is the custom of quasi-pentecostals to make every issue a test of fellowship. Wake up, preachers. It is not the old people fighting the new music. It is the upper middle class who in the permanent whitewater of the secular world, are beginning to appreciate the stability and continuity of worship in the traditional, liturgical manner. Doubt it? Do me a favor, don't just contradict it.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 1999

DJ -- If you received e-mail s of that sort, then sorry ... those folks are reacting much as you seemed to ... and both reactions are wrong.

It's sad that many in our brotherhood feel that anytime something different or new comes around, it's because people want to pentecolstalize things. Especially in the area of music. While it is true that many of our congregatons could use a shot of the Spirit, I agree that there are standards that should be upheld ... the post with the words to "Shout to the Lord" that Sam posted is a great example. If that song is not reverent and uplifting, then nothing is.

Talk about bad theology ... I had the blessing today to fill in at a congregation not too far from Indiana, PA. The first song we sang, straight from the hymn book and with the organ and piano ... "Open My Eyes That I Might See." Whew ... bad theology! Now, we use choruses about 98% of the time in CELEBRATION! on Tuesday nights at CSF .. and I can tell you that the songs we sing are biblical, and theologically sound.

Are there going to be reprocussions when musical styles are changed? There can be, especially if (a) the people don't know why the changes are being made, and (b) if the leadership is not behind the changes, and vocally taking that stance before the people. Had this problem at Charleston. (They had made the change to a blended style of worship before I got there). After a year or so, one elder's wife was heard to comment to a visitor, "We're glad you're here today, but you won't like the worship service." She made that statement because of some of the music being used. In this case she made the comment to someone bigger than that, who could judge for themselves. But if she made that comment to other visitors? Is is any wonder some churches never grow.

Why is this venue important? I have mentioned it above, but I will repeat myself. Yes, it is pragmatic to a point. When I have thousands of students at the university who won't attend Sunday services because they are bored / bored with the music / services not relevant / etc., then I do want to do something about that. Following the service today we had the opportunity to have dinner at one of the members homes. One of their daughters (14-15 years old or so) mentioned that she was sorry she left the service at the beginning, but there was another young person there who left during the singing ... mentioning how bored they were with it all. Now, is this a correct response? I don't think so for a minute. Yes, I enjoy praise worship, but I enjoyed this mornings singing and praising God through hymns as well (except for the trashy theology in a couple of the songs). Yet here was a young person who was going to leave and receive nothing from the service, due to the music. Should this congregation, made up of mostly older folks, revamp their style for this teen? Of course not! Should they be receptive to his needs, and maybe incorporate a chorus or two each Sunday? Sure!

Yes, I want to reach people with the truth of the Word, and I want them to enjoy their time with the Lord on Sunday morning. That is not the end-all, be-all of their reason for coming, but it is important nonetheless.

Should every congregation abandon the hymn book? No way! Should every congregation stick with the traditional, liturgical manner? No way! Let each congregation choose their music to fit what they are trying to do for the kingdom.

A test of fellowship? I haven't read anything on this thread, or any of the threads even remotely related to this subject, where anyone would make musical style a test of fellowship. I pray that you are not calling me a quasi-pentecostal ... whatever that may be. After reading my other posts, and re-eading this one, I certainly believe I am making a reasoned discussion on this issue ... I haven't called anyone "fundamental" or "hyper-conservative" or ??? And I wouldn't.

And btw ... I use whatever music is chosen to edify the Kingdom and reach the lost ... not for my own personal interests! Wow ... for someone who has no idea who I am or what I'm about, that was a pretty strong shot, if it was directed to me. If not, I'll let that rest.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, November 07, 1999

I am all for the praise and worship songs. That may be the style that the people of the church like. BUT! Big But! My fellow brothers who agree with me need to be carefull of their reasons. I believe the church is for the worship of the Christian. I do not agree with changing a syle of worship because we may reach "new people" into the church or people think church is boring so we have to change for those outside of the chur. How dare anyone say that the worship of God or the study of God is boring. That termonology comes from those in darkness. ". . .all the believers used to meet in Soloman's Colonnade. No one else dared to join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number."

-- Anonymous, November 08, 1999

I feel that I need to clarify something in my original question. I am concerned about the music, but am more concerned about the sensual movements that I see in the services that usually accompany certain types of music. Hopefully this helps.

I DO appreciate all answers even if I don't agree. Thanks again for your help in helping me.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 1999

Here is a question concerning the first question... can we limit the way people express themselves to the Lord? Can we dictate to people that their honest and genuine expressions within the service is wrong? For example, if a person raises their hands and prays to the Lord- are we going to tell them that they are liberal charismatics and they are going to Hell? Sound extreme? Some churches do just that! Are we going to tell our youth to stop, swaying their hips when they praise the Lord? Are we going to tell people that laying prostrate on the groung is wrong? Are we going to dictate that shouting is out of order or clapping one's hands? What about nodding or foot tapping? What about dancing? What about smiling? Or what about kneeling?

Does all of my questions sound silly? So does the notion that we can tell a person that how they express themselves for the Lord is wrong? Some say you cannot use any form of praise music. Hey, for those who do not like praise music- go to a 'Supertones' concert- would you want that in church? Be thankful... praise the Lord with all of your heart. Stop the complaining and grumbling and bickering. Let us all just "Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord... let us lift our hands to heaven and Praise the Lord!"

-- Anonymous, November 09, 1999

Danny -- I'm not too worried about it shortening my career.

A Kelly -- you could do a lot worse than the Supertones! :) I enjoy those cats ... though I'm not sure if I would want an entire service of their stuff for praise and worship.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, November 09, 1999

Danny, there once was a Christian Church in which a man became filled with the Spirit and raised his hands. Some lady behind him said, "Quick call nine-one-one, he is having a heart attack!"

There was another church in which a man died in the service. An EMTs were called to the scene. I am told they dragged out five people before they got to the right guy. Perhaps, some churches could use a little excitement. Too, often we have more fire in the coffee pots in the fellowship halls than within our pulpits and within the church pews.

Some things to think about.

-- Anonymous, November 10, 1999

D.J.

*Sigh*

It seems to me that your attitude is not the same as that of Christ Jesus as Paul tells us in the letter to the Philippeans 2:5. How can you say "Thus, we should keep our mouths shut about what they have done to our worship services." OUR WORSHIP? Why is this about you? Worship is about how we react to GOD, not ourselves. It is what we do because of who He is and what He did for us. It is not some sort of personal preference that we can pick and choose. Worship is between YOU and GOD not YOU and THOSE AROUND YOU. If YOU cannot WORSHIP HIM in the surrounding you are in, CHANGE IT! Don't try to change the people who ARE worshipping.

"Uninformed and unaware, they toss our hymn books out." What? That is the same type of broad sweeping generalizations that makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. Your statement was designed to incite hate, and I for one am offended by your words as well as your attitude.

"It is interesting to me that these same people grant us absolutely no liberty in demanding we want another style of worship: one which leads to a more reverent atmosphere." Who are you to demand anything? AND for that matter who are WE TO GRANT YOU ANYTHING!?!?

"Disruptive? Divisive? Oh, no! When you're squandering my inheritance...my musical inheritence, I'm going to speak up. When you replace good theology with bad theology, I'm going to speak up. When you dumb down church music without thought of repercussions, I'm going to speak up. When Duane has such an excellent forum for discussion of topics such as this, I'm going to speak up. It is the long term impact on our services that this change will affect."

Your words speak for themselves... Musical Inheritance? HA! Pray tell which Biblical principal does that fall under, except for Liberty or Preference? (BTW there's that whole "Me-My" thing again... When does it get to be about God in your book?)

"I long for a reasoned discussion on this issue." As do I, however, I don't see it in either of your posts on this thread.

"It is the custom of quasi-pentecostals to make every issue a test of fellowship." Are you name-calling? O.K. I'll bite... What makes one a quasi-pentacostal?

-- Anonymous, November 11, 1999

This has nothing to do swith the discussion, but . . .

Would you people please tell me how you get the type face effects (boldface, underlining, etc.) into your postings? I've not been able to transfer any of that in from anywhere.

-- Anonymous, November 11, 1999

Nate -- I posed some of the same questions (quasi-pentecostal?) to DJ and have yet to receive an answer either.

Sometimes it's easier to attack, then retreat back into the comfort of the "norm" than to face others.

I've found that to be true in congregations, and sadly, on this bulletin board as well. Just keep plugging away. We might not all agree with one another, but at least we can agree to disagree and continue the communication. I learn something just about every day on the bulletin board. Hope others do as well! :)

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, November 12, 1999

ISTM that that if we threw out the *formal worship* (which is nowhere found in scripture) and went to the simple gatherings together there would be no such thing as what style singing would be discussed.

The only two scriptures used for directions on singing were to individuals who were singing to one another and making melody in their hearts to the Lord. Tradiion has lifted those two verses out of their context and plopped them down in a *formal worship* service. People can sing to one another at the kitchen table, on the lake shore, or anywhere else where two are more are together, except in a *formal worship* service which is not endorced in scripture.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 1999