More on *leadership*.

For those of you who think there are men on earth today who have authority over other men dwell for a while on Matt. 23:12. Those who serve others (which is all of us) are not the same as those who have authority over others. Sometimes we completely ignore Christ's teachings in Matt.

Something else to look at (before we get later to the words such as *rule*.) There are always people who want *a king like those around them*. These are people who want to give up their individual responsibility such as giving their money in the plate for others to spend for them...thus relieving them of the responsibility. (Which in fact, it does not in God's eyes.)

There are also (always) those who *would be king.* Hey, Mike, did you know there is not a word in the Greek for *authority*? We deny the authority of the "clergy/laity" (or at least use to) of Roman Catholicism and most Protestant denominations, but we disregard our own.

Recap: One who is a servent (and serves others) has no authority. There is no word in the Greek for *authority*. We are to submit, one to another. No one today is empowered with spiritual gifts to fill an *office.*

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Answers

Nelta Says...."Then that word is mistranslated because it goes against the teaching of Christ."

One word for you....."NEO-ORTHODOXY!!" (or is that two words).

Anyway Michael....I've always had respect for your Greek scholarship....I often go to you before Vine's. Ha!!!

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Mr. Kelley......

Something is wrong...wrong....wrong here. Two subjects we agree on and in the same day!!!!!!!! What has happened?? Where have we gone wrong??? Is it a Y2K quirk??

But seriously.....brilliant...absolutely brilliant and well put. A hearty "amen" to everything you said.

Nelta.....NEO-ORTHODOXY. (Look that up in English.)

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Nelta,

Not that I consider myself an expert in the Greek language because there are many other men more proficient in it than I, but I can say with a bit of assuredness that you clearly are not proficient in it either.

The only way I would say that I agree with you would be that no "authority" is not a Greek word it is an English word, but there is the word "authentein" which is in 1 Timothy 2:2 and 2:12. This is the word translated authority from the Greek.

You'll have to brush up a bit more before you make such statements.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Then that word is mistranslated because it goes against all the teachings of Christ.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Nelta,

I think you have missed something here. Several times in the past few days, you have been asked to explain Hebrews 13:17 in light of your opinion on leadership. As of yet you have failed to do so. Now again, when you say there is no word for "authority" in the Greek, you have skipped right over this passage.

Here let me quote it for you: "Obey them that have rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give an account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." KJV

Now, let me quote Strong's definition of the phrase "have rule over you". 2233 hegeomai - middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of 71; to lead, i.e. command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, i.e. consider: KJV - account, (be) chief, count esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.

Now, the referenced word 71 is "ago" - which also is translated to mean "to lead".

You can continue to choose whatever definition of "hegeomai" you like to suit your purposes, but to say that "authority" or its principles do not exist in the Greek is either poor scholarship or a blatant attempt to mislead others.

Sorry, I'm not buying today.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Nelta, your statement that the word "authority" does not appear in the Greek is off the wall. Of course the English version of the Greek word would not appear. For example in Matthew 28:18 Jesus said "All authority has been given unto me..." the word in the Greek here for authority is "tasso", which means to appoint, designate, or set a side. This word is the same that is used by the Centurion in Luke 7:8 to describe his position and level within Rome's Army. Paul told young Timothy that a woman is not to have "authority" over a man. The Word here is "authenen" which is a pres. active infinative- which means to have mastery over, to be dominating, to exercise authority. Of course we do know that the opposite is true- God has place man as the "authenen" over the household and within the Church.

Also, Paul told Titus to "appoint Elders in every town" (Titus 1:5). The Greek word for appoint is "kathistami" which means to put in charge. It is accompanied in this passage with the word form "diatasso" which means to command or order, or give instructions. The role of Elder in the scipture is an office to which God has placed as the authority over the Church. THis office and role is God and man appointed- for Paul told Titus himself to appoint these men through the direction of the HS. But, as they are ordained for the function God gives them His seal of approval.

See, to use the scripture Mat. 23:12- does not appy to the appointment of Elder- but as an attitude all of us are to share even the Elders of the Church. We must become a servant to lead the people- Jesus taught us this in washing the Disciples feet. Jesus has supreme authority over all of man, yet He became a servant even unto death on the cross.

THerefore God does place in man a level of authority- this is done for the home and in the Church. That is why it is sad to see, a board of Deacons having more voting rights that the Elders in order to maintain more authority- this is very unscriptural. The Elders or Pastors are the head of the Church under the rule and command of Christ our groom and Chief Cornerstone.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Ok, you *know-it-all* preachers.:-)

This is my last post on this subject. The words in the scriptures Duane asked me to respond to are as follows: OBEY...RULE...AUTHORITY.

These are English words and instead of getting hung up on English words we have to know the teachings of Christ and the apostles. If a word does not fit the teachings of Christ and the apostles we are misusing the word. *Church* is a very good example of that.

That's all folks!

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Nelta, Sorry if my words seem harsh. I did not want to come across as a "know it all" but the Greek is a specific language- that is why God chose it. The word for church is ekklesia which is listed in Matthew 16:16- where Jesus said "I will build my Church". The word Church is not unbiblical- it expresses the corporate gathering of the Saints. In Acts, they ( the disciples) met not only in homes but also the Temple to preach Christ (Acts 2). Also, when Paul established a Church in a city he went right to the synagogue... why? Because it was central for all Jews and Greek to point to. Often the whole synagogue would be won over to Christ- in some cases not. But, the synagogue became ( in many cases) the first "Church Meeting Place" or building. Plus, we are members (if we are in Christ) of that Church. We compose the "called out ones" or the "Community" which is to express the word Church. Although king James wanted the word "Church" to mean the state authorized church- he turned a very Biblical word into a very worldly thing.

Stick around do not leave yet. Please respond back.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

AKelly, I am not going anywhere yet. But I think you are mistaken about the word *church* being a good Biblical word. Community fits God's people, it shows God's people whether they are gathered together or going about their daily lives. The word *Church* gives the idea of an *it* something we place membership in (not Biblical) or we *go to* or we *plant it*

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Nelta...

Since you're not going to respond again, I'll feel free to make one more comment. If we are interested in the same things of Christ, wouldn't the very language the Scriptures are composed in be of a little interest to us then. I mean the Apostles penned the very letters in Koine Greek - so it bears a little weight.

Your points about "authority" and "rule" and "obey" aren't fully comprehended when you say such words are not in the Greek and they are. Now such words can be skewed by contemporary ideas or connotations that are brought to bear on those words. Take "rule" for example. This is a perfectly Scriptural word, but the modern feminist movement has perverted many from grasping the Biblical author's original intent in the use of such a term.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Hey Nelta, I like your last post on the Halloween thread.... But I am really still waiting on the other thing...

You wrote:

This is my last post on this subject. The words in the scriptures Duane asked me to respond to are as follows: OBEY...RULE...AUTHORITY.

No, I was not asking about just those 3 words. I was asking about the entire passages.... they are:

Acts 14:23: "When they (Paul and Barnabas) apointed elders in every church...."

Acts 20:28: To the Ephesian Elders "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God....."

I Timothy 3:1: "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do."

I Timothy 5:17: "The elders who RULE well are to be considered worthy of double honor."

Ephesians 4:11-12: "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints."

Hebrews 13:17: "Obey our leaders and SUBMIT to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account."

You wrote:

These are English words and instead of getting hung up on English words we have to know the teachings of Christ and the apostles. If a word does not fit the teachings of Christ and the apostles we are misusing the word.

These "English words" ARE the teachings of Christ! How can a word not fit "the teachings?" Are not "the teachings" themselves "words?" This sounds like circular reasoning, like the snake eating his tail. We can't trust the words, but we can trust Christ's teachings. But His teachings come to us in words, so....

I guess we will have to do this the hard way, but perhaps it is as it should be...we may both be edified... I know I will be, because it will strengthen my understanding of God's Word with some passages I have previously taken at face value....by getting down to the nitty gritty, so to speak.

So let's just take Hebrews 13:17, OK? What English word would you replace OBEY with? How about SUBMIT? And, how would you response to Mark Wisniewski and AKelley's posts? You touched on the word church in your reply to Mr Kelley, but were strangely silent on all of the other greek explanations he and Mark gave. Why? I mean, you said you did not want to get "hung up" on English words, so they both called your bluff, so to speak, and whipped out the original language.

To their clear reasoning about the original words of Jesus and His apostles, you have not responded.

Are you just obeying the Holy Spirit's command for a woman to keep silent?

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Duane, I am pasting your post to answer as best I can.

Hey Nelta, I like your last post on the Halloween thread.... But I am really still waiting on the other thing...>>

Wait no longer.

You wrote:

This is my last post on this subject. The words in the scriptures Duane asked me to respond to are as follows: OBEY...RULE...AUTHORITY.

No, I was not asking about just those 3 words. I was asking about the entire passages.... they are:

Acts 14:23: "When they (Paul and Barnabas) apointed elders in every church...." >>

Since *church* is a mistranslation lets change that to *community* and it will be better understood.IMO. At the time of the infant body older knowlegeable men were oppointed to help mature those who had been converted.

Acts 20:28: To the Ephesian Elders "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God.....">>

Again, the H.S. had made them overseers...those who watched for the souls of the sheep. Does that happen today? Does the H.S. put men in that position today? If not then we don't have those men today.

I Timothy 3:1: "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do." >>

I'm going to finish this in the morning.

Are you just obeying the Holy Spirit's command for a woman to keep silent? >>

Can't let this one pass. The way I look at this is if a man thinks a woman should keep silent on e-mail list he would be sinning if he read her posts because he might learn something,:-)

-- Duane Schwingel (duane@mytalk.com), October 27, 1999.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 1999

Hey, folks, the word "church" IS certainly in the New testament Greek text; but it's kinda hidden. It occurs twice, if I remember correctly. No, I'm not talking about the translation of the word "ecclesia", but another word, that came down through the etymological channels of history and came out "church" in the English language.

Here's your language quiz for today -- what word am I talking about?

-- Anonymous, October 28, 1999

LOL.... touche, Nelta. I had it coming to me! But I figured a little tongue-in-cheek would help "bring you out". I will leave it to the others to answer your exegesis. Thanks for helping to keep this forum lively!

-- Anonymous, October 28, 1999

Danny, I am on a roll but I prefer a little butter with it... Ha... Ha! Thanks.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 1999

Brother Gabbard:

You hit the target squarely in the center when you said the following:

One word for you....."NEO-ORTHODOXY!!" (or is that two words).

I say a hearty Amen to that astute observation. Maybe you should start a thread on this subject of Neo-orthodoxy. It bears some attention by those who know the truth! Amen and Amen! I thank God for you as always.

Brother Demastus:

Again I find that we are in complete agreement on something! I do not know if I can bear it! Ha! I am truly impressed. Your stand for the truth in this matter is excellent. Your use of the original language is scholarly and accurate! You can see what I meant when I said that losing one such as yourself to any error would be a tragedy. Indeed it would! I appreciate your argument and you can rest assured that we will stand firm together on this one. I will come back later to add my arguments to the impressive list of those already given by you, Brother Danny, and Brother Kelley. Thanks mike for your stand on the truth in this matter.

Brother Kelley:

In the same thread I find Both you and Brother Demastus standing firmly for the truth. I agree with Brother Danny concerning your comments. I quote his words again to express my appreciation for and agreement with his assesment of your post:

But seriously.....brilliant...absolutely brilliant and well put. A hearty "amen" to everything you said.

I also say a hearty amen to your words!

Brother Danny:

You were shocked to find agreement with Brother Kelley twice in one day. I know the feeling for I have found that I agree with Brother Demastus and Brother Kelley in exactly the same Post in the same place on the same day. I do not know but this could be one of those y2k things as you say. Ha!

Seriously, It is pleasant when Brethren can dwell together in unity. I thank our Lord Jesus Christ for these two men and their ability to understand the truth on this subject we are discussing in this thread.

I express my appreciation to all of you. I also want to notice that your arguments have been completely ignored by your opposition. Was that too caustic? Ha!

I pray that we all can agree with our Lord in this Matter for when we do we will naturally agree with each other. How pleasant and wonderful that would be!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 30, 1999

Brother Mark:

Great Job!! I want to say amen to you as well! I am sure that you notice that your excellent arguments have also gone unanswered. In fact they have gone completely unnoticed by the those who oppose the truth in this matter! Could it be that your arguments are so strong that they cannot be answered? I think they are!

Amen to you Brother! Amen!

-- Anonymous, October 30, 1999

Hey Danny!

I agree w/ Mr. Saffold.... start a thread on neo-orthodoxy! I'd like a refresher on that topic. :-)

-- Anonymous, October 31, 1999