To Duane,

I put this on my 1stCen.Christianity list this morning but since it in a beginning of the questions you asked I will post this here and then deal with the scriptures you based your questions on.

I just want to set the stage for how I see *leadership*. First of all, we pick and choose from the scriptures (IMO) and fit them into what we have always been taught in our traditions.

When the community of believers was in its infancy, signs and wonders, and special gifts were given to certain ones to build up the believers and also to bring others to Christ. When Titus and Timothy were told to appoint *elders* in every community of believers the H.S. empowered them, making them overseers, with whatever they needed to do their jobs. Today we have the Holy Scriptures, inspired by God to equip us for every good word. If we are going to say we are given the same kind of men today as then, we can't pick and choose. Like Roy says, we would then have to take the speaking in tongues and prophets (where God talks directly with said prophets) as being for today.

The leaders we have today are Christ and His inspired apostles. We also have one another as we become more knowledgeable in His word. Those who are mature in the faith are to be leaders to those who are not yet. There are so many scriptures telling us how to deal with one another such as singing and confessing our sins one to another.

ISTM that every time we see the one *elder* we think of a title or a work. In reality it is talking about older people, men and women.

Just my thoughts for now.

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

Answers

One word....."NEO-ORTHODOXY"!!!

Or is that two words????

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

Michael......

You can spout Greek all you want to (which I appreciate....because you are right)....but to someone who takes a "neo-orthodox" view of Scripture....it makes no difference....because....ultimately what matters is "what they think....or what they experience."

The only time "what the word says" matters is when it fits into their "system."

Those are just more of "my thoughts."

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Some interesting thoughts in the above post. A couple of thoughts arise:

1. Yes, when the community fo believers (the church) was in its infancy, the apostles and those they laid hands on were provided special power via the Holy Spirit to verify their teaching, which certainly helped to bring people to the Lord. My question would be: when you say the Holy Spirit empowered the elders of the first century, do you mean with special "signs and wonders" empowerment? I can't find anywhere in the Scriptures where the elders Paul instructed his evangelists to appoint were given any of these special powers or gifts. Not that they didn't have the gifts, provided Paul or another of the apostles laid hands on them for this purpose. Yes, the Holy Spirit empowers all of us today with whatever gifts He deems necessary for the furtherence of the Kingdom. I'm just wondering what you mean by gifts.

2. I agree that it is the Scriptures that give us the authority to carry on the Kingdom work today. I certainly believe the elders of today carry on as did the elders of the first century church. I have always believed that God makes men elders ... not the vote of a congregaiton. It is the congregation's "job" if you will to recognize the Godly appointed leadership of such men, and submit to it.

3. You mentioned that the leaders we have today are Christ and His inspired apostles. Do you believe that there are men living today who serve the Kingdom as did the apostles of the first century?

4. Not sure why you understand the word translated "elder" in various N.T. passages as being just older persons, rather than a person whom God has entrusted to serve His Kingdom as an elder/pastor/bishop/shepherd.

Just asking!

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

Darrell, I am going to paste your response in here so I can keep up with what you said.

Darrell Combs (darrell@csfpa.com) responded to a message you left in the The Christian Church bboard:

Subject: Response to *Leadership*

Some interesting thoughts in the above post. A couple of thoughts arise:

1. Yes, when the community fo believers (the church) was in its infancy, the apostles and those they laid hands on were provided special power via the Holy Spirit to verify their teaching, which certainly helped to bring people to the Lord. My question would be: when you say the Holy Spirit empowered the elders of the first century, do you mean with special "signs and wonders" empowerment? >>

I'm not sure just how it was done, but the fact is the "Holy Spirit hath made you overseers." The H.S. had a hand in those men who were needed as the other special gifts for that time were needed.

I can't find anywhere in the Scriptures where the elders Paul instructed his evangelists to appoint were given any of these special powers or gifts. Not that they didn't have the gifts, provided Paul or another of the apostles laid hands on them for this purpose. Yes, the Holy Spirit empowers all of us today with whatever gifts He deems necessary for the furtherence of the Kingdom. I'm just wondering what you mean by gifts.>>

By gifts I mean the once directly given by God though the laying on of the apostles hand. The way I see it today we are given talents at conception that will enable us to dwell among God's people giving what is necessary for their good. Not only that but talents that can be used in bringing others to Christ. It is my understanding that some people are born *people, people." I have a son like that. Others are not born with the ability to interact so well with people. Who would have the most impact on teaching the lost? Not to say we all must not be able to teach because we are told to "give an answer to those who ask us...."

2. I agree that it is the Scriptures that give us the authority to carry on the Kingdom work today. I certainly believe the elders of today carry on as did the elders of the first century church. I have always believed that God makes men elders ... not the vote of a congregaiton.>>

I believe if God made elders they would have special abilities today.IMO as people mature in the faith as they get to be *older* they will be able to lead the younger in the faith. Just a side line...when a godly man leads by a godly example and has filled his heart with the trues of God and has the good of the souls of the people he is *among*, there is not a Christian anywhere that would not desire to follow such a person. We crave to be around those who are intent on knowing us, our problems and our concerns and is ever ready to give us spiritual strength to keep striving for our goal. (This is not done in *churches* today because the intent of MOST congregations is to run an institution. Leaders in the groups today do not usually know each and every sheep and his needs. How in the world can he look after the souls of the sheep *he is among*.

It is the congregation's "job" if you will to recognize the Godly appointed leadership of such men, and submit to it.>>

We are to submit to one another. I suggest no man on earth has any authority over another on earth. Jesus said the same in, I think it was Luke.

3. You mentioned that the leaders we have today are Christ and His inspired apostles. Do you believe that there are men living today who serve the Kingdom as did the apostles of the first century?>>

No! I believe all those died out with the apostles. I believe we are all ministers, priests, sheep, and all in the same boat...submitting to one another in love.

4. Not sure why you understand the word translated "elder" in various N.T. passages as being just older persons, rather than a person whom God has entrusted to serve His Kingdom as an elder/pastor/bishop/shepherd.

The word elder means *older person*. (I know you know that.) I want to answer further Duane's questions about the word *rule* and the other words we have put special meaning in.

Just asking!>>

Thanks Darrell!

Nelta

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

There is an overall assumption that is taken as fact in our movement that may not be a fact at all. THis is the assumption that all gifts such as speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy etc. were only given through the laying of hands of the apostles. THis goes back to the question in the thread concerning I Cor. 13:10. Too many times we discount things because they do not fit into our hermeneutics. If we really want to be the restoration of the NT ideal for the church, then perhaps we need to take a closer look at how we view this subject and how the NT NEVER really said that the gifts have ceased. Yes, we do have the whole canon of the scriptures both OT and NT, but let us consider that the HS still has a tremendous work to do in today's modern Church.

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

Actually, Nelta, your handi-capped reliance on English translations is coming through with you instance on such a thing as saying that "elder means older persons". The word "elder in Greek has three primary words - episkopos, poimein, and presbuteros. Sure one can staunchly say that "elder means older persons" because it does, but to limit such a word with an English-only understanding is actually more indicative of that individual's lack of knowledge of koine Greek than it is the problem with the word.

Apostle means simply "one who is sent." So I am an apostle. Deacon means simply "minister." So I am a deacon. Elder means simply "older person." So I am that (to a person younger than me). Prophet means simply one who teaches, so I am that too.

Or do I take into account a number of variables. One is that certain words have broad and narrow meanings. All the above definitions of those terms are broad meanings. But you and I know that there were only twelve apostles, there is a role in the life of the church known as deacon/minister that some are not called to, there are some who oversee/shepherd the flock they serve, there are those who forthtold God's impending wrath and didn't merely teach. Another variable is the translation variable. Not only is it a handicap from the start to be totally relaint upon English-only translation, but it is made more complex by the fact that many translations are not bias-free.

Just my thoughts.

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999