Good morning all:

Good thoughts here. At the end of this quote will be a response I received when this was put on TQ.

"Dr. Hans Kung, a well-known European theologian, published a book a few years ago entitled The Church. Dr. Kung lamented the fact that the established church has lost its way; has become burdened down with tradition; has failed to be what Christ planned it should be.

The only answer, according to Dr. Kung, is to go back to the scriptures to see what the church was in its beginning, and then to recover in the twentieth century the essence of the original church.

Since God has vested "all authority" in Christ (Matthew 28:18), and since he serves as God's spokesman today (Hebrews 1:1,2), only Christ has the authority to say what the church is and what we should teach.

And since only the New Testament sets forth Christ's instructions to his disciples, it alone must serve as the basis for all religious teaching and practice. Teaching the New Testament without modification is the only way to lead men and women to become Christians."

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TruthQuest Prologue: "Let us endeavor to always temper our answers with meekness and fear. (1 Pet.3:15)"

Nelta, perhaps the reason for our dismal failure in reconstructing the "church" is that there never was one in the sense that we perceive it. Our focus has been on "searching the Scriptures" to find the true pattern for the establishment, the authority, the organization, and for the work and worship of the "church", while those very Scriptures tell us of Jesus. The Big Picture of all Scripture is JESUS. The Pharisees also missed this point. Perhaps we should first get our focus on Him and then let Him do the "church" constructing, let Him add to His "church" such as should be saved. The first believers were "added to the Lord". Acts 5:14. Christ membership is the only membership spoken of in the New Testament. Church membership is foreign to it. Saved individuals become members of Christ in the human body sense of the word, in the sense that the arms and legs are related to one another and both to the Head which is Christ. The Bible does not speak of an intermediary between the body parts and the Head in this arrangement, as certain denominated religious organizations would have us believe. People from all sectors are tired of hearing the "church" being preached. It's happening all over the country. People are speaking out to hear about Christ and Him crucified. Let's join in with them! Thanks for the thought. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

-- Anonymous, October 18, 1999

Answers

Mr. Brock.....

Thanks for this post.

I don't agree with it....but I do thank you for it.

Because your post makes me aware that the "neo-orthodox" view of the Scripture is alive and well.

You make the same error that Hans did (as well as all German neo- orthodox theologians) which is.....to attempt to separate Jesus from doctrine which you strive to accomplish by separating Jesus from the Scriptures.

Let me be specific......you in general criticize our movement for...."searching the Scriptures for the pattern, etc. of the church. You say our real focus should be Jesus and then let Him "do the church constructing."

In a very subtle, almost imperceivable way, you undermine the ability of the N.T. Scriptures to produce the church. Instead you suggest that more of our focus needs to be on Jesus....and that somehow the church will come into being.

This is neo-orthodoxy at its best...i.e., an undermining of doctrine/Scripture in favor of an experience with Jesus.

In response I simply say.....

1) Without the Scriptures....there is no knowledge of Jesus.

2) Without the Scriptures.....there is no knowledge of His church, its organization, pattern, structure, worship, etc.

Mr. Brock....our movement, if it needs to be criticized, can only be criticized for not maintaing the strict adhearance we had in the beginning to study the Scriptures diligently and to be a people of the book.

To the degree that we again commit ourselves to the inerrant word of God....and it's study......we will produce the church of the New Testament.

And....in so doing.....we will know Jesus better.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, October 18, 1999

Thank you, Danny, for responding. The purpose of the quote and the response to my posting the quote to another list was for the purpose of having us realize that the *church* as we have it today is not found in scripture at all. What we do today has been handed down to us from tradition, much of it from the RCC.

In the 1st century the apostles did not set up what we have today. They would be totally shocked if they walked into our formal worship services today and saw the set-up of the organization of the institution with all the paid staff and the separating of the sheep into the *clergy and the laity*. We can deny that till dooms day but the fact remains when the light of truth is shined on our practices today...from the *leadership* to the big business which they run...there will be found nothing that resembles the apostles teaching.

Thanks again for responding. Other thoughts are welcomed.

-- Anonymous, October 18, 1999

Hi again everyone. I just had to respond to some of the thoughts here. I would say Nelta that if where you attend, they are not set up according to Christs pattern for the Church then possible much of what you say may indeed be true, for I know a number of congregations where tradition has replaced the plain teachings of the Scripture, BUT, THIS IS NOT TRUE ABOUT ALL OF THEM. I know that in Revelation there were a qroup of churches that had left their first love, and given some severe warnings. I understand that after 70 Ad, only two of those congregations were still going along and finally even they were gone. The whole concept of "Clergy - Laity" is obviously foreign to the Scriptures, but unfortunately is practiced by a number of local congregations that have gone Liberal or worse. How can I deny what is obviously true in some cases, but not in all. With all my heart I have taught the pattern of the Church as revealed in Holy writ and fought against the heresy of traditionalism. The biggest problem I have run into is with people who call themselves Christians who do not even believe that Christ has established His Church and that the Holy Spirit has not given us a pattern in the Holy Oracles. There are Strong Men of God who also have given their all to following that pattern and to Train up other Timothies and Titus' of the world to commit to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. II Tim. 2:2 So dont get discouraged my friend, "The Lord knoweth them that are his." We need to all do as Paul said, "Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." Ii Tim. l:13. Isnt it wonderful that God is still on His throne and that His Kingdom (Church) has endured all these years, and we can be part of that "World without end?" There may be some who are "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowlege of the Truth." Ii Tim.3:7, But by the Grace of God, He has reserved many who have not bowed the knee to the Cultural abomination of our Land and Liberal tranditionalism that has laid waste many congregations. Remember too my friend The word of God is indestructable, and still produces Faith wherever it is heard and believed. Our job is to make sure we dont deviate from the mandates of God and do the work of an Evangelist to "Preach the Word; be instant in season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." Paul warned that there would be times when people "will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears." But with Gods help we will "hold fast the faithful word." and continue to be able "by sound doctrine to exhort and to convice the gainsayer." (Titus l:9) I am glad I am just a Christian dont you wish everyone was. Say it with Paul in II Tim. 4:7-8. "Fight the good fight." Bro. Jack

-- Anonymous, October 19, 1999

Dear Bro. Jack!

Thanks for responding. We seem to be talking in generalities. Please give scripture for where the *church* as you see it is set. Maybe take one item at a time.

Thanks,

-- Anonymous, October 19, 1999

Bro. Jack,

Did you forget to give specifics about the *church*?

Just wondering!

-- Anonymous, October 21, 1999

Nelta. Finally got to your several responses. What specifics of the church do you not know about? I am assuming your question is genuine/ there is much about "The Lord's Church in scripture. What Specifics, you mean like who founded it, where is was founded? What faith it teaches?? Waiting. I will try to be more timely as we move along

-- Anonymous, October 24, 1999

Hello Jack and all:

This will be my last post for the day. I will be getting back into teaching and must get some work done around here.

For people who think the church is an institution (not saying you do) it is not easy to find a place to start, but here goes.

Christ adds people who are obedient to His body, the universal body. The trouble starts with the group gatherings set up in the kingdom. Just because we meet together (for the purposes taught in scripture) does not make us something else, meaning we do not join anything else. We are still in the universal body simply meeting with other like-minded people.

The word *church* as directed by King James be left in his translation (so he could be the head of it) gives the idea of and *it* something we place membership in. Something we *plant* or *start*. (BTW we have a copy of the original KJV and in it are the rules for translating.. If anyone is interested I will post them to the forum.

The correct translation of the word ekklesia is (for one) community. King James said don't use that word.

Because we have an *it* we have built ourselves an institution. We have an *eldership* which runs a big business. This is not found in scripture. But who cares? Evidently, not many.

We have taken out of context scriptures and fitted them into our traditions. I will simply name a few.

1) A building where all this big business takes place. (Nothing wrong with a building.. as such.)

2) A few making decisions for the many. *Eldership* and those they hire including all the staff to run this big businees inside this building that the members are taught was purchased with God's money.

3) Scripture taken out of context and taught the people that the common treasury taken up on Sunday is from God.

4) A formal worshop service nowhere found in scripture.

5) Calling Sunday the Lord's day where all this formality and rituals take place. Teaching the people this special day is from the Lord and they best not forsake.

6) Setting up rules for the Lord's supper. Christ said, "As oft as you do this....." He didn't say how often nor on what day. Traditions have it a time and place.

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

Hurah, I do believe you hit the nail on the head, as far as you went. The only area I wondered about when you replaced the word "Church" with the word "Community" Unless my Greek is flawed, The word "Church" is from the Greek word which means "Called out". Refering to those of course who are called out of the world to serve The Christ. This would take in the generic usuage you ascribed to the so-called "Universal Church." However, this does not annul the word Church as referring to the local congregations of those "Called out." which was used repeatedly in the New Testament. I sense you have an aversion to there being any pattern in the Scriptures for the local congregations, and hope I am wrong. I know what you mean however about this "Board of Dominion" (my words), but as knowledgeable as you appear to be of the Sacred Oracles Do you believe that there is a pattern for the local congregations as far as their government and the business they are to attend to is concerned?

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999