What do you all think about titles in the Kingdom of God?

I thought to throw out a practice in the kingdom today that we might want to compared with the apostles' teaching. That being the wearing of titles. To some this might be a little problem but when we deviate from the purpose of the *plan* then perhaps it is more than little.

We in the kingdom are all priests, ministers, sheep, the family of God with Christ as the head. We are all on equal ground using talents God gave each of us at birth. The wearing of titles in the kingdom separates some from others, making some more important than others. Causes some to be up atop a pedestal. I cannot find anywhere in scripture when ANYONE in the kingdom wore a title. In fact, separating people with titles (and in other ways) from those who have none, goes against all the teaching of Christ about unity and humility IMO.

Just wondering!

-- Anonymous, October 14, 1999

Answers

When a person in the church wears a title, and does so with an attitude of superiority, then it most certainly goes against any number of biblical concepts, not the least of which is humility. When a man (or woman nowadays) takes the title of THE Pastor, or THE Preacher, or THE Whatever, then maybe they should check their humility. But, when a person uses a title in order to keep things clear in the community, maybe ... and I say maybe ... it is good, or at least pragmatic.

For instance ... at my last congregation, when the newspaper wanted to run an article and photo of the new preacher in town, they required me to use the term pastor. When I asked that it not be used, they said it was a requirement the paper had. So I said okay. Better to get the news out than make a big issue of it.

Same thing when someone calls and asks for pastor Combs. Rather than spend time to correct them, it is easier to take the call. If the chance avails itself at a later date for further teaching, great. If not, no harm done.

Attitude is an important key here. Yes, bible things by bible names, and accuracy. But also the attitude with which a person uses a title, or does any number of things in the Kingdom.

Darrell Combs

-- Anonymous, October 14, 1999

Response to Titles...

I appreciate the concern regarding attitude and the bearing of titles. May I suggest that titles are used to identify responsibility. There are those within the Kingdom of God that bear specific responsibilities. eg. Eph. 4:11.

These 'titles' tell of God's organization of peoples within the church that need to accomplish their specific work that God has given them, inorder for God's purposes to be acccomplished within the church as a whole. Therein lies the importance of calling things by Bible Names and acting consistently in accordance with them.

Both, you and I continue to be concerned regarding those who love to bear titles but not the responsibility. This, as shown in church after church, causes untold difficulties and strife within the Body of Christ. May we always recognize that with words, come meaning. And when God is doing the talking, it behooves us to hear what He has to say. He that hath ears, let him hear.

Just for fun, What about the issue of equality within the kingdom? I will leave it at that, for now, to make of it as you will..... enjoy.....

Keep those threads coming, Your bro Dave

-- Anonymous, October 14, 1999

To Darrell and Dave,

I can almost agree with you both.:-) However, I can see much damage in titles in the kingdom. If we could look at *works* and descriptions of those works I think that would do away with titles, then there would be no separating of the sheep into groups. For instance,

1) Minister so-in-so. This is a work we all must do but when someone takes on the title it becomes HIS and therein is the separation. 1b) Pulpit Minister. This was not used until the last few years. 2) Preacher so-in-so. What can I say? 3) Pastor so-in-so. This is a work not a title for the *lead* man. 4) Rev. so-in-so. Perish the thought. 5) Dr. so-in-so. This is usually reserved for the Ph.Ds in the kingdom. 6) Bro. so-in-so. This has become a title for the preacher. Use to it was for all the men who were Christians. It was not until the last few years used as a title but as in a family relationship.

-- Anonymous, October 14, 1999

Nelta,

I can understand your concern. But I cannot take it upon myself to minimize what God has said in His Word. God has given some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists and some pastor teachers. But what I can do, is my best to understand what God means by what He says and then to act consistently in accordance with it.

Obviously this is a tall order, and I have a lot to learn. Yet, I am confident that with continued honest study, God will reveal His truth. May I suggest something. The titles that you used in your last note are not found in the Scripture, to my knowledge. I do realize that many groups and individuals have devised there own words to describe what they are all about. Well, I suppose we would have to ask them. As for me, there is enough of a challenge to understand what God desires to be accomplished thru the revelation of His Word. Therefore I will pursue that end, and (probably) won't spend a lot of time on the man made stuff and ideas.

Mind you, I don't mean to say that with an attitude of superiority, but rather with a desire to really do what God would want done.

May we all pursue God's truth. Dave

-- Anonymous, October 17, 1999

I personally prefer for my lay people to refer to me as holy-pastor- revered-father or just "Oh great one."

-- Anonymous, October 19, 1999

I'm still bowing, Oh Great One Mike.:-) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

-- Anonymous, October 19, 1999

Brother Demastus:

Just thought I would present something Concise from our Lord Jesus Christ in reference to your last post:

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." (Matthew 23:5-12).

Your Brother In Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 20, 1999

Dear Reverend Saffold,

Thank you for your last post.

Sincerely,

Oh Great One

-- Anonymous, October 20, 1999

I now quote your word's from your last post to me.

"Dear Reverend Saffold, Thank you for your last post.

Sincerely,

Oh Great One"

Now you appreciate my last post probabably because it was concise but you obviously cannot read. I will quote it again so that you may have someone to read it to you:

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." (Matthew 23:5-12).

Our Lord has told us not to have these titles that you like so much. It is my desire to submit and be obedient to Him in this matter. You however are not only disobedient but you flaunt your disobedience to the Lord as if you are proud of it. Coming back to tell us that you are "jesting" does not help. Christianity is not a Joke Brother. Our Lord is not to be laughed at. He commanded us to not be called by these titles of honor. I do not accept the title of "reverend" which you have unjustly applied to me. It is your doing and not mine. I have nothing to do with such titles. You can continue to show complete disrespect for me if you like but being disrespectful toward our Lord and flagrantly disobeying His command is something for which you will answer in the Last day. God will judge you in this evil "jesting" in which you have perfected in obedience to your master, Satan, will cost you your soul, brother. It is the attitude of disobedience and disregard for the words of our Lord that will destroy you, Brother. I do not blame you for not liking me. For I have attacked your position on PK vigorously. That I can understand, but to show such flagrant disregard for our Lord's words is a fault that will condemn you in the Judgement.

You are not a "great one" brother and that is not a Joke. Evil one for sure but great one never.

I pray even more fervently for you Brother demastus.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 21, 1999

Brother Demastus:

Just another concise statement from the word of God concerning your perpetual sin of jesting and your partaking in the vain words of those among the PK organization. Who deceive others into thinking that they are saved through praying the sinners prayer and without being obedient to the gospel of Christ.

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor FOOLISH TALKING, nor JESTING, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light: For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them]. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is]. Ephesians 5:1-17.

-- Anonymous, October 21, 1999

Dear Brothers (& maybe even Sisters), Perhaps what we should do is limit ourselves to the titles that others use to describe us. That is how the believers in Antioch received the initially derogatory "title" Christian. They never claimed they were "little Christs" they just did their best to imitate what they saw in Him. I tend to agree with David about "titles" often being shorthand job descriptions. I admit I'm being dreadfully utilitarian here, but it seems much easier to say, "This is our preacher Steve," than to say, "This is Steve. He does most of the preaching from the lectern at the front of the sanctuary." In all honesty, though, Steve prefers to be introduced as "Steve" and let people figure out the rest for themselves. I think as long as we stick to the job description/titles as given to each of us by God, we'll be OK. I have no objection to honoring someone with a title which he wears well and in humility. However, I might have an objection to someone refusing titles in a spirit of pride.

-- Anonymous, October 22, 1999

Brother Madden:

I do not think that you would object to someone "rejecting" religious titles of honor in the "spirit" of humble obedience to the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ found in the following passage, would you?

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." (Matthew 23:5-12).

I do pray that we will obey our Lord in all things and understand that one who is trying to submit to Christ and urging others to obey the Lord as well is not being proud but is doing his best to be faithful.

Your brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 23, 1999

Dear Brother Lee, I am sorry if I misinterpreted your style. Although, please note, I have met many persons who did allow pride to creep into the strangest places including their attempts to obey Christ in matters of titles as well as other areas. And they are very adept at using Scripture texts to prove their points without remembering our Lord's most severe criticism of prideful shows of "obedience." (I will not make a lengthy quote, as I know you are aware of such passages which you have cited yourself in the past.) However, I must respectfully decline your offer to title me "Brother," simply for accuracy's sake. Although I use my initials, I am your "Sister" rather than "Brother." My intent has not been to mislead, it is simply the name I "go by" every day. Grace and Peace to you in Christ, Your Sister B.J.

-- Anonymous, October 24, 1999

Sister B.J.

This is twice now that I have made the error of failing to recognize a sister who was writing in this forum. I made this same mistake with Sister Lee Muse. I apologize to you for the error. I did not however title you as a brother. I referred to you as a brother because Christ said that we are all Brothers in Matthew 23:5-12. I am sure that he included our sisters as well. I will therefore refer to you henceforth as my sister in Christ. Which are not a title but a reference to the reality that we both in Christ share that relationship because of Him. No title is being imposed upon you. If that was the way may words could have been be understood I want to be clear that such is not how I intended them to be understood. I also agree with you that Pride can creep into our holiest and most sincere intentions and we must take care to avoid it at all cost. We must be vigilant in this area. But I am sure that you will agree that it is possible for someone with the purest motives to contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints" to appear prideful. Or to be falsely accused of being full of pride in order for those who are teaching false doctrine to distract the innocent from their true intent to mislead others. Those of us who contend for the faith must constantly be on guard against pride and at the same time not give way to those who would pervert the gospel of Christ. Jesus Himself warned us that some would say all manner of evil against us falsely for His name sake (Matt. 5:44). I am aware that even Satan can quote scripture. I am also aware that he did so in His futile attempt to deceive even our Lord. (Matthew 4:4). But Jesus resisted Him by quoting the scriptures. Christians are to be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh concerning the hope that is in us with meekness and fear. I appreciate your reminder that I should pay attention to the meekness part of this passage. I do sincerely appreciate your reminder and ask that you pray that our Lord will be with me in that regard and give me the presence of mind to ever be alert to the wiles of the devil who as a roaring lion walketh about seeking whom he may devour.

I thank you for your post and please accept my apology for not recognizing properly your gender.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999