This question deals with a subject that has been touched on lightly in a number of other threads, but not directly addressed. Two parts:

1) How do you determine which songs you use in worship, and are you heavily into using the current (last 5 to 7 years or so) or new worship and praise songs?

2) For those of you who are most strong about having no fellowship with or support of or influence from "denominational" (in these forums, that seems to have come to mean "no-essential-baptism") churches, do you apply that to what you sing in worship? And if so, what DO you sing?

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Answers

Darrell.......

Don't use broad brush strokes....(i.e., speak in generalities).

You know......I don't tolerate false doctrine in the form of preaching.....and our hymn choosing.

Sam......as per my preference......I'm a mixer. That is.....I like services that have a blend of the traditional with the praise choruses.

I think they both add necessary dimensions to worship.

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

D.J.

Thank you for a wonderful post. You can be the director of music anytime you want at my church.

The only thing I can say is....there is a place for the "Praise Choruses" in worship....and I hope you would agree with that. I think you were simply speaking against the idea of pitching it all for the "Praise" choruses....which I would agree with you on.

Mr. Kelley....do you work hard at making those ridiculous comments....or do they come easy???

-- Anonymous, October 18, 1999

Hey -- I use songs of the last 0-10 years in our college celebration service, though I occasionally use hymns.

It's amazing how we will take such a strong stand for doctrine in so many areas of our "church life" and yet sing songs that are so "off" biblically. "Open my eyes that I might see," "Amazing Grace" (Once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see" and so many, many others. Our hymn books are full of this stuff (check out about 80% of the songs written by Fanny Crosby).

It's also amazing how many times the new stuff gets panned by folks who don't like the style (even though a bunch of it is plain old Scripture set to words) and some of those same folks have no problem singing the older hymns that are "off" biblically speaking.

Darrell Combs

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Dear Sam,

This question is a major one in our fellowship right now, as younger leaders are coming up, and a younger crowd in the congregation is maturing. The real issue shouldn't be, in my opinion, what type of music there should be, but rather where does it take us? Does it take us into the presence of God as a worshipping community? Or do the songs focus on us ("Lets just praise the Lord, praise the Lord" -- doesn't really say anything about worship does it?). The music format is just the wrapping paper, whats inside is what counts. We mix a balance of good hymns and praise choruses in our worship, it reaches a broad congregation and teaches both ends of the age spectrum something about both types of worship format.

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

Personally, I am in concurrance with the others here. I prefer a mix of the new and older styles. It would seem that those who dogmatically hold to using only the traditional hymns are usually the same ones who use the "We never did it that way before" argument whenever anything new is proposed. And those who dogmatically insist on only the new stuff seem to have closed their minds to the needs of others in the congregation.

Typically, the newer choruses are nothing more than passages of scripture set to music. What could be closer to pleasing God and affecting those singing these words than that? And what could be closer to the 1st Century method of worship as all they had to sing back then was passages of scripture - that which we call the book of Psalms today.

To be blunt, I am less concerned with what type of music we sing in church than I am with what music we are listening to (and allowing our children to listen to) the rest of the week. I see an inherant danger in a lot of what is being marketed as "Christian Rock" these days. Much of it is nothing more than '70s Hard Rock or '90s Gangsta' Rap with a few "Jesus's" or "Hail Marys" thrown in.

What is it that Shakespeare wrote, "a rose by any other name.......". Understand, that all music is written to evoke a response from the listener and it behooves us to observe the reactions it creates and then make our own decisions as to what is proper and what is not for ourselves. Those of you who have ever shed a tear while singing in church know where-of I speak on this matter.

If what you are listening to and singing in church promotes a spirit of love, peace, contriteness, praise, and honor - by all means use it (whether it be old or new) for it would have to be considered a gift of God to be used for the worship of the Lord.

Respectfully, Mark Wisniewski

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

Another direction here -- you asked in the original note how we determine what songs to use in worship. No matter what style of music we use, we always try to have that music direct the folks towards the message ... in other words, theme the entire service.

If the message is focused on the power of God, then the songs are chosen along those lines as well, no matter if they might be hymns, choruses, or what. If the message is about the Lord's Supper, then the songs would focus on God's devotion to us and His sacrifice through His Son.

I believe this gives more meaning to the entire service. And not only the songs, but the prayer time, communion meditation (if that can be applied), testimonies, drama, whatever is used in the service should have some focus on the theme for that day.

In the last post, Mark noted some problems with Christian rock and rap. He makes some valid points. However, I understand, as I know he does, that music can be used to catch the attention of the seeker and the young believer. I have attended special services that focused on rockers, and the music was very rock. It got their attention, where many might not have come if the music was contemporary or hymns. True, you win them to what you win them with. But I have seen many folks whose attention towards the Lord started with rock, or rap, and as they matured, you could see their focus moving away from that genre and on towards other styles. And if they can truly worship through the rock or the rap, more power to them. I find it difficult, but I never would limit the power of the Holy Spirit to used any medium ... and I know Mark wouldn't either.

Darrell "Sing It Loud -- I'm Christian And I'm Proud" Combs :)

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

Darrell, thanks for clarifying my remarks. You're right in the fact that some of the "Rock" I spoke of can be very useful in winning some young people. I say SOME of it because there are some songs that are too inappropriate to have any Christian value whatsoever.

The statement "what you win them with, is what you win them to" is one I keep close to heart. It is very much true that Jesus, during His ministry, reached out to people where they were (prostitutes, adultresses, tax gathers, etc) and that is something we must do as well if we are to reach those who need the Physician. BUT after Jesus reached out to save the woman caught in adultry, He told her "go and sin no more" as well. It's one thing to initially reach a "Rocker" through some of this music, but if their response to that music (things like head-banging and stage-storming) doesn't change (mature) with time - then I think there is a very serious spiritual problem evident in the individual.

Music is a very emotional subject, as you are aware and is therefore difficult to make absolute statements about what is right or wrong. I think James would agree though that actions speak louder than words, so any music that evokes negative (non-Christlike) actions should be phased out in favor of that which is pure and holy and good. Personally, I think God is better served with a bowed head, than with a banged one.

A fellow servant,

Mark Wisniewski

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

Uh, Which Hymns did Paul & Barnabus sing while in jail?

***Just a thought :-D***

-- Anonymous, October 14, 1999

While I am on the subject...

Martin Luther was branded a Heretic because he used German "Bar Music" to set the words of hymns to. It has kind of persisted and now we are facing the same judgemental attitude that Martin Luther faced back then. (While the judgers are singing Martin Luther's style of music.) (By the way, I am speaking as someone who has heard this from others over and over... I am not referring to any particular person)

What music do you think that God wants to hear? The inaccurate Fanny J. Crosby stuff or the music of our hearts? I am of the generation of Hymns (non-instumental C of C) but my heart really sings (emphasis on SINGS!) when the music speaks to me. Can I sing hymns? You betcha! (pick a harmony part, and I'm there!)Worship is where we are in relationship to God.

I firmly believe that each congregation of God's people has a different personality... Case in point, a congregation in Haiti worships God differently than we do... are they wrong because they aren't singing hymns? (By the way, you might not be comfortable with singing for 3 or 4 hous before the preaching starts.)So this congregation might be perfectly willing to use Electric Guitar and Drums with their worship while singing Choruses. While another might only use a piano or nothing at all and sing hymns. Which is right? Which is wrong? Let's just chalk this us as just another Christian Liberty and leave it at that, shall we?

-- Anonymous, October 14, 1999

Uh, to quote Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" Music has become so diverse in the past 25 years (pop, rock, rap, country, gospel, ska, r&b, blues, punk,...and each of these have dozens of sub- genres in themselves!) that you will never please everybody, all the time.

Worship music--whether hymns, praise choruses or whatnot--must be biblical, inspirational and edificational (the style is but the vehicle to that end). Music is also the connection with our community. If I lived in my hometown (rural central Montana, populated largely by cowboys and retirees), I would not have a "rock"- oriented worship, but I know a "country"-style flavor would go well. In my church--made up of "busters" (20-40 year olds), we have two popular worships: The Edge (rock) and WOW or Worship on Wednesdays (pop/rock). And we still sing hymns, too!

The reason the Wesley brothers (and Martin Luther) used "bar songs" for their hymns was because the people were singin' them in the pubs. My problem with most church worship services today is we are more interested in OUR preferences, rather than what might help non- believers or fringe believers experience God more fully. If your church is built for your own interests (which is fine), then sing an extra hymn or song and forget the invitation time (because you're probably not attracting anyone to answer it anyway).

Personally, any church not incorporating the praise music of the past 5-7 years is missing a wonderful blessing! The hottest selling music in Christianity is worship. If you don't know where to start, let me suggest the double-disc WOW WORSHIP! It has the latest and greatest.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 1999

I weep for the state of music in church today: It's pietistical, elementary and hokey. I am a classically trained pianist, a professional musician and piano teacher. I have spent my lifetime in the Church of Christ and attended a Bible college. I have 33 years experience in music.

I am opposed to the exclusive use of worship choruses for several reasons: 1) Content 2) Quality and 3) Affect on Sunday worship.

1)Content: The thin, superficial lyrics of today's worship songs pale in comparison to the great body of Christian hymnology and church music. Modern worship songs lack depth.

2) Quality: For the most part, the well meaning brothers and sisters churning out the worship songs, blasting us out of the services, are poor performers, performing even poorer music. Historically, in every period of music, there is an absolute standard of quality, beyond relative opinion. God cares about the quality of our efforts. Modern praise choruses "dumb down" musicians. These are songs with few chords, nearly all written in rudimentary style, and in the same key signature.

Compare the quality of church musicians in J.S. Bach's day to our church musicians today. Bach's musicians had to be able to handle difficult music. Few church musicians today could in any way compare. We've quit making demands on our musicians.

3) Affect on Sunday Worship: Sunday morning should be for worship, but now the focus is instead on evangelism. This changes the atmosphere and focus of our worship services. This music doesn't move one to fall down humbly on bended knee before God. It's more aimed to put us up in God's face, screaming, "notice me".

The music in our churches today is lazy and pragmatic. WILL GOD REALLY HONOR LAZY AND PRAGMATIC WORSHIP? Before you answer "yes" to that question, think about it.

-- Anonymous, October 17, 1999

Dear DJ,

You generalization of modern music as being "thin on content" reminds me of the story I was told recently. A bible college student was sitting, turning pages frantically in his Bible. When asked what he was doing, he replied, "I am looking for the meat! All these Psalms contain is 'Praise God" stuff.'" We must be very careful, no matter what we like of assuming what we like is deeper than what someone else likes.

-- Anonymous, October 17, 1999

Let us throw out the organ and replace it with a full band!

-- Anonymous, October 18, 1999

Thank you they come easy- but I do mean it. A lot of hymns are not worth the paper they are written on- and as for the organ... I hate it! So many people love it, but not me. I personally love to see drums, electric guitars, etc. a full band! Now to me that is church- to really rock tha house for Jesus!Oh, by the way- the youth in your church will not get into worship with an organ as much as with a dynamic praise and worship band.

-- Anonymous, October 18, 1999

I find myself again compelled to respond in this forum, and it grieves my spirit to do so.

D.J., While I am not the accomplished musician that you are, let me say that I personally have 41 years of experience in music, I studied Music Education (Voice) at Freed-Hardeman College in the 70's. And was a regular worship leader at my home congregation which was a non- instrumental Church of Christ. I love hymns, I can sing any harmony part I want to. (even in my sleep) I can worship my God with this music. And I can lead others in worship of him with it.

I once was a part of a choral group that had an angelic sound. (if we humans can even concieve of such a thing) We were almost perfect in performance.

The problem that musical perfection in worship presents is that the "comman man" musically and vocally untrained see this "perfection" unattainable for himself and therefore bows out of his worship while watching others. You add enough of those people together and you will find a modern church.

Martin Luther changed all of that. He saw the need for personal involvement in corporate worship, hence the addition of "Bar" music to the words people already knew. The contemporary christian music scene was born. (But of course these hymns you speak of come from that age and you already know this.) Nevermind that Martin Luther was labled a heretic in his time for fighting against "head" worship traditionalists and making christianity a "heart" thing.

If you look over time, you will notice that each generation's music is considered to be heretical by the preceding generation. (and I'm not only talking about church music)

My father used the same arguments on me about the Beatles that his father used on him about the Andrews Sisters. (incidentally, it was your argument concerning simplicity.) I vowed never to be judgemental of my children like he was of me. It was completely unfair.

You see, you already know deep in your heart what I am about to say next... Music is a "preference" to be enjoyed by all. You excercise YOUR preference in the use of hymns, psalters and psalms. Please allow the rest of our preferences that we afford to you. This isn't the Black/White issue you make it out to be, but a christian liberty that the Apostle Paul allows each of us to make.

There will ALWAYS be Contemporary Christian Music... you know how I know that? I read it in Revelation where John said that there was a "New Song" being sung!

P.S. I can worship God with all kinds of music. Music is my language! Let's get together with Duane and someone else sometime and do a Quartet? hmm? Maybe some Southern Gospel? :-D

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

D.J. : I share in some of your comments on contemporary music, at least in the "musical" sense, but I do have some comments on the "practical" side of them.

I too have a bit of a musical background as a classically- trained Clarinetist with over 28 years of performance experience with 20 years of private teaching mixed in - along with Bible College experience.

As I wrote earlier, I do have some concerns about the level to which some comtemporary music has sunk to. But I think several of your generalized statements go a step too far.

AS far as: 1) Content - Many contemporary songs are rather simple and may lack some depth as far as the deep things of God are concerned. But then again, most of these songs are simply quotes from Scripture set to music - I personally wouldn't consider that to be too simple for God to enjoy. If it is, we better stop reading scriptures during our services or sermons before God gets really angry.

2) Quality - True, I would not put our modern worship music in the same category as Bach's Toccota & Fugue in D minor, but I also would not consider it as "poor music" simply because of its meter, key signature, or modal qualities. And to say that these newer offerings "dumb down" musicians is a horrible thing to say. That hardest task a musician (a good musician) can face is to take a simple piece of music manuscript and make it sound like music. Some of our "best" hymns like "Amazing Grace", "In the Garden", or "They'll Know We Are Christians by Our Love" are very simple - technically speaking. The challenge to the musician (and oh how I enjoy the challenge) is to perform these in a way that evokes the emotions of the listeners in the way the composer desired. You are absolutely correct when you say God wants our best efforts - He should demand and get no less from His servants. If the music is "lackluster" though, maybe is because our musicians and composers have not been taught appropriately to give that best effort. If that is the case, whom should we criticize?

3) Affect on Sunday Worship - Worship Music SHOULD cause one to fall down humbly on bended knee before God - or at the very least bring a few tears to the eyes - I'm with you on that Brother ! But it should not be the complexity of the piece nor the dexterity of the performer that causes the reaction. It should be the words and nuiances of what is sung that pierces the heart. No matter how simple a composition is - if it accomplishes the bended knee or shed tear, it has done its job and God will be pleased with it.

Let me ask all here: How many of you remember singing "Jesus Loves Me" as a child? How many have sung it with your own children? How many can trace their own walk with God, or that of others, back to that simple beginning? I thought so.

Oh, by the way, AKelley: Why is it that your youth have to be encited by volumn & rhythm to "get into" worship. I'm not real big on the organ these days myself, but I think that our worship belongs to God, I don't think we belong "in it" at all.

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

I have the duty to pick the songs that we sing during worship time. During our worship time we have a praise time in which we sing two sometimes three praise songs. The rest of the time we use the hymnal. The hymnal has great songs to sing, but a time is coming when the church will get ride of the hymnal. This would be a great lost to our children and their children if this would ever happen. What would you sing during communion some rock song. Would we dance around the communion table because we have loud music and the kids enjoy it. I grew up with the great hymns, I enjoy singing them because the words mean so much.We sing our praise songs but do they listen to the words or just the beat.The same can go for the hymns we sing also.I want the words to jump off the page and tell me the story, just like when I read the bible. When we come into our worship time we should be reverent towards the Lord. Yes, some of praise songs do have meaning but some don't. Take the song I Gave My Life forThee. Look at the words is Jesus singing this song to you. I knew of young youth minister who told me one day that the only thing a hymnal is good for is to start a fire, and that we should get rid of all them in the church. Well, I must tell you all this, this guy was lucky I was a Christian, because I felt like taking his head and knocking some sense into it. I left because I did not want any harm to come my young arrogant brother in Christ. So if we use both great, but do not forget the hymns that has great words and meanings In Christ,

tom

-- Anonymous, October 28, 1999

This is one of the big debates in our church right now. The question is raised "Why are we printing the words to choruses in the bulletine when we have perfectly good hymnals?" Because sometimes the chorus that is 'new' will convey in a pure and simple way the message we are trying to get across. "As the Deer" and "Give Thanks" are two we have recently used. They may be simple but they are right from the heart. Every song, every hymn does not need to be complicated and deep. As long as we are sincere and sing from the heart, does it matter WHAT we sing???

-- Anonymous, October 29, 1999

Here is my point---- There are very few hymns that can move someone so emotionally that they want to raise their hands to the Lord (which is a very biblical thing to do). When we mouth words from a hymn many people tend to just do it like a robot- they often are not rejoicing or truly praising the Lord of Host. Instead, our worship services have become meaningless exercises of tradition, because that is the "way we always have done it." Of course what was good for grandma and grandpa is surely good enough for me- give me the "old time religion" you might say. But, are we truly led into the presence of God? One thing Ben Merold once told me is that contemporary does not have to refer to our songs we sing- I think he is right. So often the pianist plays the hymns like they were a funeral durg. THis makes worship stale and boring. Although I personally like and love "newer" ways with drums, guitar, keybords, brass, and wood within the music service of the worship- it still must lead us to an emotional realization that we are in the presence of the Almighty God. THis can be done with even hymns. But, let us not stick to the hymnal like it was our Bible. I have been in churches that if you suggested stop using the hymnal to incorporate transperancies, they would literally crucify you... "I ain't singing no songs off a wall!" they proclaim. Maybe that is why I get into trouble- I would much rather have the "Supertones" lead us in worship. Thus we go around in circles.

But, perhaps all of this is not about us and the way we like it... perhaps it is about what we can give to God- whether new or old- whether instrument or non. Maybe... just maybe... it is not about what I can sing or how or even the style, but simply if I can truly give God all the glory honor and praise that He alone deserves. Whether with a soft quite meditative style or a loud rock/pop flavor or somewhere in the middle- let us not argue- but let us rejoice and Praise the Lord God Almighty in whatever style, method, or useage.

-- Anonymous, November 02, 1999