The following quote is taken from another thread:

"If you are an elder in the church and not just a preacher who has designated himself as the Pastor then I must apologize for my tone and manner of speech before you. A Christian cannot rebuke an elder in the church."

My question is this: Can the evangelist of a congregation rebuke an elder? Please allow me to elaborate, giving just one situation. I'm sure there may be many.

At my last congregation, I served with three elders. Two had been elders for many, many years. One had just "come on board" as an elder. At a leadership meeting (elders and myself) one of the older elders admitted he had lied to the congregation regarding the reason or reasons why the last evangelist had left. His admission was not in repentance, but matter-of-fact. The young elder was shocked (I must say I wasn't, as his admisson was not a surprise to me). The young elder stated that this whole thing must be brought to the congregation to allow them to know the truth. The older elder was outraged, and stated that this matter would never be brought before the congregation. I asked him why he thought it okay to lie to the congregation, and he admitted he had done it about other things in the past.

I then asked him to repent of this, and to make it right, and he flew into a rage, stating that I couldn't rebuke an elder, along with some other statements I don't think appropriate to quote in this forum, due to his language.

I took the time to try to explain 2 Timothy 4:1ff, explaining that one of the charges I had as the evangelist/preaching minister of the congregation was to rebuke ... and nowhere in the passage does it say I should never rebuke anyone due to their eldership.

Does the passage in 1 Timothy 5, "Do not rebuke an older man harshly ..." refer to those serving in the capacity of elder? Even if it does, how do we explain rebuking HARSHLY versus rebuking in love?

Any thoughts?

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Answers

I would like to add a hearty "amen" to the words of Brother Jack Prentice.

I believe one of the offices of the church that sorely needs to be restored today is the office of evangelist.

We have preachers today who want to be pastors, counselors, minister....et. al.

But the office of evangelist was very much alive and well in the N.T. church (in fact.....three letters were written concerning their responsibilities.....1 & 2 Timothy and Titus).....and I would suggest the Restoration Movement still has some restoring to do in this area.

Darrell......one more thing. 2 Timothy 4:1ff contains the admonition to "Preach the word in season....etc...etc......reprove, rebuke, exhort....etc." Is there a phrase I'm missing that excludes the eldership??? (tongue in cheek)

By the way guys.....and Lee........let's quit calling 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus "The Pastoral Epistles".....named so by our denominational friends.

These letter were not written to elders. They were written to evangelists....so.....let's call them what they rightly are....."The Evangelist's Epistles."

There's my hobby horse for the day!!

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

Darrell: Context makes it obvious that presbuteros in this place refers to older men, period. It teaches respect for those who have maturity. The evangelist must at times, rebuke. But we must keep control, using love and wisdom when we are sadly forced to take a strong stand. Of course, in some of our churches, the minister is seen as a lackey to be ordered around and humiliated by and eldership who have elevated themselves to demi-gods. Over reaction has led many ministers to become THE PASTOR and become little dictators. Some of us, and I am one, am blessed with an eldership that understands servant leadership. We love each other, pray for each other and with each other, and occasionally call each other on the carpet. Its painful, but each man understands we are in leadership to serve. I am a fortunate man indeed.

Good luck in dealing with the situation. Do what is right. Do it in love and with all humility.

Sam Burton

p.s. We knew each other about a million years ago back in Lexington.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Oops. You said it was your LAST ministry. My bad.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

1 Tim 5:17-20 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages." Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Well, it looks like the Muse Lady (Sorry, I don't remember whether it's Miss or Mrs. or Miz, as they say down here in the South) haXXXXX it right on the head. The Scriptures do NOT say an elder can't be rebuked or accuesed, but when you do it it must be supported by a number of witnesses. In the meeting spoken of, you had yourself and two others witnessing the confession. Looks like it was time to put the truth to the public.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Brother Sam,

Thank you. It is Mrs. but you all can call me Lee.

Your Sis

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Brother Combs:

Inasmuch as I was the one who made the statement that you refer to in your question, I consider it my responsibility to correct this error. I quote the statement as follows:

If you are an elder in the church and not just a preacher who has designated himself as the Pastor then I must apologize for my tone and manner of speech before you. A Christian cannot rebuke an elder in the church."

The scripture that you refer to (1 Tim. 5:1) does include all of the older men and as such would also refer to those in the official capacity as elders in the church. Even this passage does not restrict us from ever rebuking an elder but it does teach us the manner in which it should be done. It is not to be done sharply but rather as children who would entreat a father. Then the Passage quoted by Sister Muse, which I now quote, settles the matter for all honest souls. I quote it as follows:

1 Tim 5:17-20 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages." Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless two or three witnesses bring it. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

-- D. Lee Muse (christchurch@ctwok.com), October 11, 1999.

She is absolutely correct and it is true that we can rebuke elders. My statement was wrong. I should have said that we cannot SHARPLY rebuke an elder in the church and if we are going to accuse an elder in the church of wrong doing or teaching we must use the cautions given in both of these passages. 1.) If we rebuke them we must not do so sharply. That is that we must entreat them as fathers. 2.) If we accuse them we must have two or three witnesses. If accusations are proven by two or three witnesses not only are they to be rebuked but they must be REBUKED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL. Sister Muse and Brother Combs and Brother Loveall, and Brother Burton, I thank you for the correction.

The words that I said were written in the context of the discussion I have been having with Brother Kelley who had once told me that he was a Pastor in the Christian Church. It was a concern in my mind, which I have always had when talking with an elder in the church, that I must be careful how I speak. Especially to one whom God through the Holy Spirit (through the teaching of the Spirit in the inspired word of God) has made an overseer (Acts 20:28) of His people in any place. Both of these scriptures that have been cited do tell us to proceed with caution when rebuking an elder and this is what I had in mind. I should have said that a Christian should not Sharply rebuke an elder and even that should not be done without two or more witnesses to establish that he has sinned. If I had said that I would have been correct. However, that is not what I said and therefore the statement to which you refer, as written by me, was completely in error and I hereby offer this admission that it was wrong and submit the above correction.

I do fear however that many today are only too eager to rebuke an elder in the church and would never pause to even consider their tone when writing or speaking to them. This I seek always to avoid when speaking to an elder in the church for they are indeed to be esteemed Highly for their works sake. Peter said,  You younger men, likewise BE SUBJECT to your elders; and all of you cloth yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble.

We are also told to  Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: For they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT; that they may do this with joy and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you. (Heb. 13:17).

Since brother Kelley had said that he was a pastor in the church and I was not sure if he meant that he was an elder that had been made an overseer by the Holy Spirit (Acts 20:28) through the word of God. Or if he meant that he was, in the denominational sense, a preacher that was the self-designated pastor of the local congregation where he preaches, in which case I wanted to be cautious in my rebuking him for supporting the false doctrine taught among the promise keepers. I should have been cautious in the wording of my concern about this matter. For I did say the wrong thing and I hope that you will accept my apology for the error and take note of the correction.

I thank God for all of you who were diligent in noticing error and correcting it promptly and I pray that you will always do this, especially, those of you who attend PK meetings. Please, when you attend, preach the gospel of Christ and be diligent to correct the errors and false doctrine that is being taught all around you at the PK meetings. Be as diligent as you have been in helping me to realize this error and correct it. It is the right and scriptural thing to do.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

I think the supply answers handled this thread wonderfully. Permit me to take it a tad deeper. When we realize the awsome responsibility that God has placed upon those Evangelists that he has called to labor for the Churches as is given to The Evangelist Titus in Titus l:5. like to "set in order the things that are wanting and ordain Elders in every city" as Paul had appointed him. It appears that God has Given to the work "some Evangelists and some Pastors.." Because of the nature of their joint endeavors God may have done that as a check and balance. The Evangelist is to do the work of an Evangelist and make full proof of his ministry. II Tim.4:5b&c. I would to God that those who claim to be called of God to preach the word, and Be Evangelists would devote themselves to that ministry they have been called to. The Lords Church today is crying out to Gods Evangelists to set things in order and ordain men who have the credentials God says they have in order to be Bishops or Pastors over the flock. Reprove where needed,rebuke where needed,exhort where needed, with all longsuffering and doctrine. God is not a respecter of persons in the church, so as to superscede His own word. We must committ the word to Faithful men who will be able to teach others also. Preach the word. Bro. Jack

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

A bit of comment from Mr. Saffold's reply leads me to take this thread in a slightly different direction, closely related to the original question.

Mr. Saffold said, "This I seek always to avoid when speaking to an elder in the church for they are indeed to be esteemed Highly for their works sake. Peter said,  'You younger men, likewise BE SUBJECT to your elders; and all of you cloth yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble.'

The question which rises is this: Are ALL elders in the "church universal" MY elders (that is, in authority over me), or is my submission in things spiritual only given to the elders of the fellowship which I attend and of which I am a "member"? In other words, am I to submit spiritually to the elders at YOUR church in the same way I do the elders at MY church?

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

Brother Gabbard:

I agree with you. I say amen to your comment concerning the "pastoral" epistles. I do not think that we should call them "Pastoral" epistles for the reasons that you give. Just wanted to say AMEN.

May God Bless you in His service.

YOur Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

Brother Loveall:

The question that has arisen from my words that you have quoted is a good one and I can see how my words would have given rise to it. I will quote your question and offer a brief reply to correct the impression that was made by my words that I did not intend to leave. Your question was as follows:

The question which rises is this: Are ALL elders in the "church universal" MY elders (that is, in authority over me), or is my submission in things spiritual only given to the elders of the fellowship which I attend and of which I am a "member"? In other words, am I to submit spiritually to the elders at YOUR church in the same way I do the elders at MY church?

The elders in the local congregation have absolutely no authority over the Christians in any congregation outside of the local congregation of which they are members. I will write later to support this view. But I only have time now to state it clearly. That in my effort to be respectful and to show appropriate regard for one whom I knew to be an elder among Gods people, in a certain location other than my local congregation, was not in any way implying that he had any authority over me in the Lord. It was simply a matter of respecting one who held such a responsible position in the body of Christ. I have no obligation to submit to him because he is an elder in the local Church unless he is an elder in the local congregation of which I am a member. I only want to make it clear that I do not believe that the elders in the church have any scriptural authority to exercise control over the church universal. Christ our Lord is the only head over the church universal. TITUS 1:5 shows that elders were to be ordained in each congregation. So I hope that this will clear the matter up as far as my words giving rise to this question. It is a good question and has many implications that I do not have time to enter into just now. But, please understand that I have not said, nor have I demonstrated by my words, that I was in submission to any elder outside of my local congregation. I am subject only to the shepherds of the fold of which I am one of the sheep. This is scriptural and right. This however does not give me a license to rebuke harshly the elders of another congregation. If any circumstance brings me into contact with those elders it is only right that I should afford them the respect that the local congregation must show them. For I have no right to treat another congregation of Christians with less respect that I do my own. And if an elder in the local church does not have any authority elsewhere (and surely he does not) then I, who am not an elder, certainly do no have any authority outside of the local church. So when I visit a local congregation in another city I will be respectful to the Christians in that place. And to show disrespect to their elders who have been made overseers by the Holy Spirit (Acts 20:28) would be the highest form of disregard for them and the Lord who cares for them.

Thank you for your very observant questions and please understand that my words, though they gave rise to the question, were not intended to imply that the elders have any authority outside of their local congregation. I was speaking only concerning the attitudes of respect that we should show to one who has such awesome responsibility in his local congregation.

I pray that God will abundantly bless you Brother Loveall.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

O.K. I've read all the text book answers......now I have a question...mind u all NOT tongue in cheek here at all. IF in fact that we all belong to the church universal & placing membership in the traditional way that we do in our churches ( & others I'm sure) is not Biblical (maybe A-Biblical??) then why aren't the elders of the church universal overseerers of the church universal? In other words is the basis for our elders "over us" deemed so when we place our membership in something that we already are members in??? Does that make any sense at all to answer? HELP! AND I'm sure there are those of U that will! :) Kathy C. ><>

-- Anonymous, October 14, 1999