Roman Empire

Many snicker at the possibility of our society collapsing. It's obvious we haven't learned a thing (as a society). According to the media and some on this forum there's just no way this can happen. Pride never dies! Yet history tells us it can happen. People have died in the past, due to technological blunders. Computers are involved in every aspect of our infrastructure, not just water. I got this quote out of the Nine Possible Futures, via the mathematical certainty link.

The fall of the Roman Empire is attributed by many to one technological glitch. Having built their vast empire and infrastructure, it was noted that the equally vast plumbing system gradually began to induce lead poisoning into the population. Even if the problem had been fully understood by Roman leaders, there were not enough skilled workmen to replace the system with copper piping in time. Millions died and the civilization collapsed.

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), October 08, 1999

Answers

Great post Larry.....well worth reading !

-- kevin (innxxs@yahoo.com), October 08, 1999.

A couple of observations from the history buff:

The lead in the pipes didn't help, but things like the overextension of the empire, the loss of "Roman-ness", through the sale of citizenship, attack from the Barbarians ( our ancestors, BTW) the decay of the infrastructure of roads and ports, weak central leadership, corruption, the usurpation of power and division of the Empire by the Roman Army, etc, all combined to undermine Rome. It died the death of a thousand cuts.

Rome didn't 'fall' overnight. The actual decline and fall of Rome took 150 years. By the time Rome was sacked proper in the mid-400's (470? Double check that) its power was long gone.

The Romans had simple metallurgy. They could only cast, which is why they chose lead in the first place. The technology to make large amounts of copper pipe had to wait until the 19th century. Even if they had wanted to do so, copper was precious because it is used for bronze, which was the mainstay of Roman armor and weaponry. Using copper for plumbing would have been incredibly expensive for them.

When I was in Greece I walked over many Roman ruins. They had plumbing alright, but all of it I saw was ceramic- a type they used extensively, "Terra Cotta". Even exposed to the weather it was in excellent shape, and a lot of Roman stone and ceramic waterworks are still in use today. Most of the lead referred to in Roman plumbing was actually used for fixtures like spouts and faucets, because of the ease of casting.

The Romans also taught us to seperate the drinking and sewage water systems. This may seem elementary to us, but the ancient world never seemed to get it before Rome, and even large European cites didn't catch up to that idea for a few centuries. I saw a Roman general's house in Salonika that had a fresh water cistern where gravity maintained the pressure, and a flush toilet of sorts where the wastewater drained into a septic system! Those ancient guys were a lot more sophisticated than we realize.

Rome's fall had a lot of synergistic causes. If we fall, the causes will also be many. But in one sense, Rome is still with us, if you look around at everything from architecture to the structure of our legal and educational institutions, you will see their influence. In a way, they didn't fall, they just became us. Also, one Roman institution is still going, although its influence is slowly waning over the centuries- the Roman Catholic Church.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), October 08, 1999.

Forrest I love your comment "In a way, they didn't fall, they just became us."

When I began an intense study of Western American property rights systems, I had no idea how much of our system (particularly in the West) derives from Roman law (particularly "equity.") I understand SO much more about the layers upon layers of obscuration that have been errected to smother these roots and the ancient law's basic assumptions about the free citizen and the creation of "property."

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), October 08, 1999.

Sweetie and I were in Chester, a well-known former Roman city. Prowling around "The Shambles," where some of the beautiful black and white shops date from Tudor times, we paused outside a small store and perused the directory. First floor--stationery, china, whatever; Second floor--linens, and so on. Then we read, "Basement--kitchen ware, Roman ruins." Sure enough, kitchen ware was tastefully displayed on the remains of enormous plinths and columns! I guess they were too heavy to remove and haul away when the shop was built. We were told there were many similar examples in the city, including an entire swimming bath under The Spud Shop (a baked potato purveyor). These things have been there for about 1300-1400 years.

From what remnantys I remember of my history, the Romans pulled out of Britain because the empire was failing and there was insufficient money to support them.

Regrding lead. I came across a University of Exeter site which says that the Romans used folded lead pipes for water and ceramic pipes for sewer. I also found the following:

http://www.runet.edu/~wkovarik/hist/ancient.html

Lead poisoning was common among upper class Romans as they use lead-sweetened wine and grape pulp (as a condiment). The Romans did not have sugar and learned that lead would sweeten wines and other acidic foods. Lead acetate (also called "sugar of lead") was the reason that many Romans became insane, sterile or gravely ill. Far more than simply using lead pipes or lead utensils, the direct consumption of lead-sweetened wine and foods creates serious and widespread poisoning among upper-class Romans. Note: This point has been obscured by companies who make lead products, such as the Ethyl Corp., but it is an historical fact.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 08, 1999.

Good posts, all. A combination of technology THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND, and political/societal deterioration. Just like now.

-- A (A@AisA.com), October 08, 1999.

Rome did not really fall. It was transformed. True, the Empire in the West went down in 476, but the Empire at Constantinople stuck around for another 1000 years.

The Byzantine Romans under Justinian actually conquered back most of the old territory held by the West. The Empire saw periods of prosperity in the 6th, 7th, and 11th centuries. They were largely impervious to attack for many years, being the first military force to use the flame thrower due to this stuff called "Greek Fire" which was probably something like modern-day napalm. They remained, bar none, the most technologically and legally advanced civilization in the world for a long time.

It's easy to say that "Rome fell," but that's totally inaccurate. The wealth simply shifted a bit to the East.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), October 08, 1999.

A wild attempt to tie this back into y2k through the back door.

Railroad tracks in the US are 4'6" apart. Why? Because the first ones were constructed by British contractors, since railroads were already in use in England, so that's where the skills were.

Why did these contractors use that guage? Because that's what they used in England. Why did they choose that gauge in England? Because that was the gauge used by the tramways, and the first railroad builders used the same tools and jigs developed for the trams.

And why was that the gauge of the trams? Because the first trams were built with tools and jigs that had been used to make oxcarts, and the first trams had wheels and axles borrowed from oxcarts.

And why were the wheels of oxcarts 4'6" apart? Because that was the distance between the ruts of the old roman roads the oxcarts used. Any wider or narrower and the wheels rode on the sides rather than in the bottom of the ruts, and broke more quickly.

And why were the ruts that far apart? That was the gauge used by the old Roman war chariots, drawn by two horses each. The wheels were set apart to match the width of two Roman horses walking side by side.

This brief history is more than how the distance between the butts of two Roman horses is embodied in our railroads today. It's also the story of how hardware and software can be totally replaced by new technology through the ages, but protocols (like the gauge or like using 2 digits for the year) goes on forever.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), October 08, 1999.

Interesting, Flint. This is why I wish software manufacturers would have committed to sticking with two-digit code for years instead of making a futile attempt at locating and fixing. Programs could refer to a dataset or init file, while processing, for the first two digits. Databases could flag proper millenium as info is keyed and referred to by associating it with the same init. I realize that this opens the door to a new host of problems, but it makes more sense to me than some of the "fixes" I've read of.

-- Larry (polandspring@hotmail.com), October 09, 1999.

I had heard about the lead sweetened wine but forgotten about it. If that was widespread, that would have had a lot to do with the insanity of Rome's ruling classes towards the end. I like the part about railroads coming from oxcarts- it shows how historically connected we are.

History is a politicised subject because every scholar wants the past to support his view. But what pops up from history is resiliently ambiguous. That's one reason why every age re-interprets history, why governments and social movements work so hard to arrange the historical facts according to their own ideas. The recurring re-interpretation of Egypt is a good case in point. Napoleon helped fuel the first Egypt craze in the late 18th century to cover his abysmal failed invasion, and it took Europe by storm. You can see its influence in the neo-Pantheist movement and Empire period archtechture. A host of new discoveries such as the Tutankhamen tomb in the 1920's began another phase which influenced the Art Deco movement and entered the popular culture through "The Mummy" with Lon Chaney. Now, you have an Egyptian revival of sorts in the New Age movement, Pyramid Power etc.

The point here is that history continues to influence our lives and ideas more forcefully than we are conscious of, even if there is no direct connection culturally. But we are more directly connected, even in our language, to the Romans. I'd say they are still here in spirit.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), October 09, 1999.