I had a lot of time on my hands to think yesterday. I sat for for 6 1/2 hours on a deer stand. Yes...I saw some....but not the BIG one I was looking for.

Anyway....I thought a lot about P.K. And I was thankful for this forum which makes me think and do self-examination to make sure that I'm not being close minded, unable to be open to new truth and new ideas.

So I asked myself...."Danny....what is at the basic core of your problem with P.K.???"

Now.....added to all this is the fact that for the last 3 weeks I have been teaching Restoration History on Wed. nights (by the way....the attendance has been in the 70's every night...it's exciting)...and this, as usual, causes me to reflect on what should be the direction of our movement.

So here is what I came up with yesterday.....when you boil it all down....this is the problem I have with P.K.

But first.....let me talk about what the problem is not. Michael Demastus has often accused us "non PK'ers" of being inconsistent in thought and/or practice. I think this will show otherwise.

My problem with P.K.......

1) Is not the fact that denominational people are there. I have attended numerous "denominationally" sponsored teaching events such as "Youth Specialties." Shoot.....2 of my 3 degrees are from denominational schools!!!!

As Michael has pointed out....he sees an inconsistency with the fact that many of us "nons" have books written by denom. preachers on our shelves.

He is right....(not about being inconsistent)..but the fact that the books are there.

There is much we can learn from denoms.....specifically in the area of technique. However, if a person in my church came and asked me for a book on grace....I'm sure I would not give them a book by John MacArthur. But, if they wanted a book on the charismatic movement....John wrote a great book on that. Discernment comes into the picture.

It's a matter of picking and choosing.

2)It is not the fact that they offer a faith only view of Christianity. I have attended and taken a number of people along to concerts by "Christian" groups that offer anything but a true biblical invitation.

Here is what my problem is......

If PK was JUST about men being men.....etc.....I would go to the next one.

However, that is not the only agenda of PK. PK has at its core a drive for union among people across all denominational lines. It is a drive for union that is supposed to be in disregard of doctrinal differences.

It is a carry over of the Vineyard Church's beliefs that the "Holy Spirit" can unite us despite our doctrinal differences.

I have two problems with this (at least)......

1) The fact is PK does push for doctrinal unity.....THEIRS! (i.e., "faith only" doctrine).

2) The union they push for is not nor will it ever be a biblical union.

"Union at the expense of doctrine is not the answer to the prayer of Jesus. It is the rejection of His authority." (Dr. Roger Chambers)

Interestingly, PK is an attempt at union very similar to what Thomas Campbell believed when he wrote the "Declaration and Address." At that time he believed the only things separating Christians were matters of opinion. However, once the Reformers accepted immersion as the only mode of baptism....he finally realized....and recanted what he had said...and was made to see the stark reality that the church is divided on matters of doctrine.

So there you have it. That is what it all boils down to for me.

If PK could simply be a "men's movement".....and not a "union movement"......I believe that I could be more accepting.

I find it very inconsistent.....to convince our people that "we are different"........and then take them to an assembly of PK and act as if this is what it's all about.

So there you have it....in black and white.

No....I won't be at the debate tonight. I PROMISED my wife I would take her out tonight.

And since I was a P.K.'er before there was P.K......I'd better take her.

God's best to you!

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Answers

Duane....

First....you slay me....you absolutely slay me. Teresa is still one of the finest Christian women I have ever met. If for no other reason.....she is still with you....and luvs it?!?!?

Second....I have no problem being talked about...in fact....this thread might be a good basis of discussion.

Third.....yesterday was my day off...I don't evangelize on my day off (ha!!)

Fourth.....you goin' huntin with us?? We only got ONE spot left already. My deal still stands with you.

Keep up the good work!

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Michael.....

You would not believe the depth of jealousy that I have for you right now. Please pray for me.

Pheasant hunting in one of the premier phesant states in the country....Iowa.

Shoot....I'd do a revival for you one time and you could just pay me in pheasant hunts!!

Have a glorious time....I love to hunt those beautiful birds.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Brother Richards,

Yes....the "Christian Church" will be the only ones in heaven.....Jesus only established "one church."

That church is made up of "whoever" has been obedient to the Gospel.

Glean from those two statements anything that you want.....but both of them are irrefutable.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Duane.....

I will answer your questions.....as soon as you tell what your "agenda" for the questions are.

Why do I get this feeling there is a "trap" close by??

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Duane.....

Sorry.....my bad.

Good.....I won't answer them then.

Besides.....I've been too busy evangelizing today.....seriously.

Danny

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Wimp!

My wife pleaded with me not be in the Chat tonight, because we had previous plans to go out.

But I told her, "Don't you know I must be about my Father's business?"

She even promised if I skipped the chat, she would fix my favorite meal. "My food is to do the will of Him who sent me," I told her

"Look, honey," I reasoned, "I know this is supposed to be a special night... but we'll have another anniversary next year."



-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

But seriously....

If you spent less time deer hunting, and more time evangelising the lost.... (never mind)

:)

That's okay, Danny. We will need somebody to talk about!

To Mr. Kelley

I hope you don't leave this thread entirely. I for one have appreciated your arguments. They have helped me to filter through all of the pros and cons of "association" with Promise Keepers.

Yes, some of the rhetoric (yours and others) gets cutting at times, and your "stepping out of the ring" (hopefully only temporarily) to cool off a little was commendable, and a genuine reflection of the spirit with which you defend your views.

As to your detractors being "full of it," well, they are. As our illustrious president might say, "I guess it depends on what 'it' is!"

It doesn't have to be "doo doo"...That would be tasteless, and we do need to "avoid all appearance of evil" and "keep our conversation seasoned with salt"

But let me say this: We're all big boys (and girls) here. We are free to say, "GIVE ME A BREAK!" or "OH PUH-LEASE" or "YOU'RE CRAZY" as we might in a normal "heated" conversation without being held to literal definitions.

If my gramma had read your remarks, she would have interpreted "full of it" to mean "full of beans"... She says that's the original meaning of the phrase...Or "full of gas" (as I know Danny is!) or "full of hot air" (as I am)

In conclusion: Your absence would be a big loss here. I hope you stay.

Full of Him,

Duane

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Brother Danny:

Yours was the first anti-PK statement that has sounded thought out and reasonable. I'm still not in agreement, but now somebody is starting to make sense. And I agree that crossing barriers is different than pretending they aren't there or arbitrarily moving them. I and my friends who go to PK consider ourselves doing the former rather than the latter. Anyway, thanks for making sense. Of course, you softened me up with your "Wildcat" comment in another thread. Disguising yourself as a good guy now, aren't you?

I too, must miss the debate. Nothing so noble as a night out with my lovely wife. I must attend a Board Meeting. I was torn. The live chat was appealing (my wife threatened to murder me if I joined in), plus I was offered free tickets to a hockey game, but the Board Meeting wins. Something to do with job security.

Oh yeah, PK from St Pete is live via real audio online tonight.

Gotta run. Have fun tonight. I'll tune in tomorrow.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Danny,

Thanks for a provocative answer that is genuine and honest. It has helped me to fully understand your position and to completely respect it. I understand the tension and must admit an in-ability to resolve such a thing at the event myself.

I haven't thought about it quite in the terms you have shared, so thanks. Now I need to go hunting, but only I am not going to be sitting in a stand - I am going with one of my elder's wandering through prairie grass and shooting them tasty pheasants. YUMMY!

But as we are out and about, I will ponder what you have said.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Brother Danny:

I appreciate your post. You are correct in what you have said. I have been to denominational "revival" meetings myself. But I did not go to "unite" or fellowship those who are not in Christ. I went to Convert those who showed that they want to follow Christ but have never had the opportunity to hear the truth.

For example, I attended one such meeting for a week and every night I challegned the preacher concerning his teaching and taught from the scriptures that we must obey the gospel to be saved which meant that we must be baptized. (2 Thess 1:7-9; Acts 2:38; Mark 16;16; Acts 22;16; 1 Peter 3;21; Gal. 3:26,27. It is needless to say that it was quite a fight. I was called every conceviable name in the book of curses. I was physically threatened but fortunately never physically harmed. The police were called to force me to leave but I retuned the following evening to continue. The week following the meeting their preacher decided to have a "series" of lessons entitled "what is wrong with the Church of Christ". When he finished his series we baptized seven of the members of his denomination including the daughter of the preacher that established that sect. After a period of time we were able to convert about 30 from that denomination to Christ. The reason this was successful was because their were several in that denomination who loved the Lord and wanted to serve Him faithfully but they did not know that they were not in Christ. They did not know that they were yet in their sins. They did not know that they need to obey the gospel of Christ. They thought that they were saved just by "believing" without being immersed into Christ. They did not know that Christ did not establish any denominations but that he had build His one Church( Matt16:16; Eph. 1:22,23; Eph. 4:4.) And I can tell you that if we had not gone there with the intent to teach them the truth and convert them to Christ and if we had gone just to fellowship those who were outside of Christ as if they were Brothers and sisters in Christ they would still be in their sins without God and living in the delusion that all was well with their souls. They would still be thinking that they were forgiven and that they were God's Children and that they were in the kingdom of God while in truth they were still outside of Christ. Was it worth the trouble? Yes! Without question. Some of them are no longer alive. If only we could ask them to tell us if it were worth the trouble we could probably end this scuabble over promise keepers immediately.

I can tell you that this was the most severe fight that we have encountered in doing these things. It is still my proceedure and I still attend such meetings to teach. The field there is "white unto harvest" and the church is growing because of such. Now there is no question that we have become considered as the church in the New Testament was the "sect that was every where spoken against". But it is true that were are at least spoke about. We are not easily ignored I can assure you of that. Sectarian preachers often find it very difficult to avoid some form of debate with us. If we are more concerned with the impression that we make on others than we are with teaching the truth and refuting false doctrine we will not accomplish God's purpose. We must not be a praty to anything that allows those who are lost to continue the ruse that they are "saved" and are in Christ when such is not true. When one attends the PK meetings without making any effort whatsoever to teach them the truth he is allowing those persons to live in the deception that they are Christians when in fact they are not. I know that there may be some Christians there who have never heard of us or the "restoration movement" but God's word is clear in it's teaching that there are none there who have not been obedient to the gospel of Christ. (2 Thess 1;7-9).

I still firmly believe that PK would be a great opportunity to convert more such people to Christ. I cannot for the life of me understand how Christians, who know that these persons are outside of Christ because they have never obeyed the gospel, can just assist in continuing the ruse that these persons are Christians. Especially, when they are in truth yet in their sins and have never come into contact with the precious blood of Christ that will cleanse them of their sins and give them a GENUINE hope of eternal life.

I pray that God will bless you brother.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

I am saddened by the fact that you are slamming an event that is supposed to make you have a closer relationship with you wives and yet you are lamentng spending an evening with them.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

MY basic problem with PK is...

The original focus of PK was NOT evangelistic in nature, but the teaching and training of (already) christian men how to become biblical and Godly husbands, fathers and men.... a truly noble cause. (let's look on those bookshelves, guys! you DO read books from denominations, yes?) I believe that it is possible to glean Godly wisdom and insight from those outside the Resotoration Movement.

However, PK has since changed its focus from the original days of yore and is now doing alter calls... becoming in essence, evangelistic in nature. Since the vast majority of those in leadership of PK are Faith-only based, the alter calls have become Faith-only based. This is where I have the problem. If I take non- Christian to this assembly and tell them that everything the teachers on stage are saying is true EXCEPT for the Faith-only part... who loses credablility with this non-Christian? ME-both ways...

I think that the idea of teaching Godly principles is great, but I for one, am not yielding Biblical principles for that purpose.

P.S. Please be careful not to get your elders between your deer and your gun. :-D

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Mr. Graham,

Your wrote: "I believe that it is possible to glean Godly wisdom and insight from those outside the Resotoration Movement."

Do you believe that it is possible to glean Godly wisdom and insight from those outside of Christ? 1 Tim 6:3-5 says, "If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited {and} understands nothing..."

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Amy,

In defense of the guys...they were just joking.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

I JUST GOT BACK FROM PROMISE KEEPERS IN ST. PETERSBURG AND IT WAS A GREAT TIME. THE MESSAGE TAUGHT THERE WAS NOT A UNITY MESSAGE, IT WAS NOT A DENOMINATIONAL MESSAGE. IT WAS A MESSAGE OF COMITTING YOUR LIFE TO JESUS CHRIST AND RELYING ON HIM TO BRING US BACK INTO A RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR FATHER. THERE WAS AN ALTAR CALL, BUT WHAT DO WE EXPECT? SHOULD THEY JUST DROP ALL OF THEIR BELIEFS AND GIVE IN TO ALL OF OURS? THE IMPORTAN THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT THOUSANDS OF MEN WERE EXPOSED TO THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST TONIGHT. I BELIEVE YOU ALL ARE VERY PETTY TO SIT BACK IN YOUR JUDGEMENT SEATS AND CRITICIZE GOD'S WORK.

P.S. WHAT DID YOU DO TONIGHT?

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Well, the rally's over, so you can stop shouting now.

I am glad the Gospel was preached. Since you and I both know the Gospel includes baptism, I assume baptism was preached. I promise I wont sit back in my judgement seat and criticize. As long as you don't sit back in yours and criticize me for criticizing....never mind.

It's like: "He shouted at them to quit shouting"

If baptism was not included, I would be careful in giving God any credit for it.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

I stayed home and studied the word of God and worked on my Acts commentary. What I didn't do was listen to a bunch of false teachers who called an "alter call" to no end. No one was saved at that meeting. They may have "gone forward" but if they didn't obey the complete plan of salvation they are still just as lost as they were when they came! And they just heard part of the gospel, because the complete gospel includes baptism!

You say we can't expect them to give up all thier beliefs. How many years has Promise Keepers been around? Wake up! They haven't given up even one of thier beliefs, but many of our brothers have compromized theirs. Read 2 John 9 - 10 for the first time. Man, it is time to get back to the Book!

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

It's been good to read this stuff tonight [ I guess it's tomorrow now ] I don't think I read the full gospel even once in all I read! The last part '4th'part, was 1st Cor.15:5 "'AND' he was seen"---.Rom.6:6 "walk in newess of life." Death, Burial,Rose again: SEEN. I quit supporting anyone that promotes P.K. Will write more later,but not tonite. Lord bless you all. Y&H C.O.G.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

What really bothers me is that nobody in here can say the gospel was preached at PK, or that the whole gospel wasn't preached. How many times in the Bible is the whole gospel preached at one time? Are all the rest of the times invalid? Should we take those parts out? Should we discount Peter's early preaching because he had misconceptions about Gentiles? I wonder how we would have treated the apostles if we were back in their time? Yes, we must baptize. Yes, we must teach baptism. But we should encourage our bothers, yes, brothers, when they are misled, not condemn them as non Christians. Do you think the Christian Church will be the only Church allowed into heaven? That would be a dangerous line of thinking.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Dan, Let me ask you a few questions:

1. Are you concerned about saving the lost? (I will assume the answer is yes)

2. If yes, then by calling them "lost," are you condemning them? (I hope the answer is no)

3. How do you "find" these lost people in order to save them? (Of each person you meet, you have to make some determination in your own mind if they are saved or lost)

4. How do you make that determination? (your answer here)

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Dear Mr.Muse I am glad to here the guys where only joking about their wives. It is hard to hear inflection from the computer screen. :)

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Mr Richards,

before I was baptized for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, I WAS NOT YOUR SISTER! What are you teaching about baptism?

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Danny,

The question was for Dan (Richards). I call you Danny.

But there is no trap. And everyone is free to give their own answer.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Amy,

You'll have to watch for the "wit" in Duane's and Danny's posts. They delight in poking fun...particularly at each other. They go back a LONG time! We wives just shake our heads and chuckle. I didn't feel like cooking last night anyway!

Teresa

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Thanks for the thoughts relative to Pk. Is PK parsel or kin to the Business mens group begun some time ago? Anyway, the concern I have had for some time involves the Whole concept of the "Promise" business and I havent heard that discussed. There was another group that came around and tried to get people to enter into a "Covenant of Salt" which went over like a lead baloon. By what authority of scripture can we enter into something like this? Serious question.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

You guys have way too much fun....

Here is a challenge for you that I gave to the churches here in CA. As the planning is done for the nearest PK meet in your area, get involved in that planning and offer to provide the means for baptism following each opportunity for decision. You can get doughboy swimming pools, metal horse troughs, etc, where by you can have available the means to fulfill the Scripture. You can also provide the men to teach at that time the indiviuals that come forward.

A number of years ago, a PK meet was held in Colorado in which E.V. Hill stated following the 'altar call', your not done yet. You need to be baptized. Now, whatever he meant by that, you can ask him, but the precedent has been set. I am aware that this is not the only precedent either.

Now, AM I saying this from a supportive standpoint of what the PK's teach or allow to be taught in regard to salvation? No. I say this as I have said to the men here, of all the encounters with people and situations, the question is this, "How can we see that they are used for the glory of God?" If we can, then let us do. If we can't, then move on to what we can do.

I would challenge you to think about how we can use what ever opportunities for God's purposes to the best of our abilities. I would rather utilize them for God (if possible) then to allow them to use me to a wrong end.

Use it to teach my friends. Use it as an opportunity to teach the truth. Thank God for the opportunities that are before us each day that give us opening to teach what is true.

GO FOR IT Dave

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Brother Richards: I will quote your words wherein you CLAIM that those at Promise Keepers in St. Petersburg were exposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ and you ask a question that we will let the Bible answer for you. Your words in full were as follows:

I JUST GOT BACK FROM PROMISE KEEPERS IN ST. PETERSBURG AND IT WAS A GREAT TIME. THE MESSAGE TAUGHT THERE WAS NOT A UNITY MESSAGE, IT WAS NOT A DENOMINATIONAL MESSAGE. IT WAS A MESSAGE OF COMITTING YOUR LIFE TO JESUS CHRIST AND RELYING ON HIM TO BRING US BACK INTO A RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR FATHER. THERE WAS AN ALTAR CALL, BUT WHAT DO WE EXPECT? SHOULD THEY JUST DROP ALL OF THEIR BELIEFS AND GIVE IN TO ALL OF OURS? THE IMPORTAN THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT THOUSANDS OF MEN WERE EXPOSED TO THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST TONIGHT. I BELIEVE YOU ALL ARE VERY PETTY TO SIT BACK IN YOUR JUDGEMENT SEATS AND CRITICIZE GOD'S WORK. P.S. WHAT DID YOU DO TONIGHT?

-- DAN RICHARDS (RICHDAD@WEBTV.NET), October 08, 1999.

You tell us that these promise Keepers were exposed to an alter Call and you indicate that such was something that you did not agree with but that we cannot expect them to drop all of their beliefs to give in to all of ours. Now you know full well that they were doing something wrong in this alter call and your tone concerning it indicated that it is something that we would want them to drop. Now the main objection to this alter call, I am sure you are aware, is that they teach men to accept Jesus into their hearts and say nothing about confessing Him before men (Rom. 10:10; Matt. 10:32,33;) and repenting of their sins (Acts 3:19) and being immersed (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Acts 8:9-25; Gal. 3:26,27; John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Eph. 5:26; Heb. 10:22; I Peter 3:21). They did not tell them about the Facts of the gospel which is that Christ died, was buried, and rose again on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and the connection those facts have to the command to of Christ for them to OBEY that gospel (2 Thess. 1:7-11). Therefore they did not preach the gospel. Instead they preached another gospel which is not another but is rather a false gospel. Yet you tell us that they were exposed to the gospel! They were not exposed to the gospel; rather, they were exposed to a counterfeit gospel, which is contrary to the gospel of Christ and you called this deception the work of GOD? Jesus told us who was a liar. He told the Jews who trusted that Abraham was their father,  You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and DOES NOT STAND IN THE TRUTH, because there is NO TRUTH IN HIM. Whenever he speaks a lie he speaks from his own nature; for he is a LIAR and the father of LIES. John 8:44. What should be the Christians attitude toward those who preach a gospel other than the gospel of Christ? Paul answers in very clear terms.  I marvel that ye are so quickly removed from Him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; which is not another gospel: only there are some that trouble you, and would PERVERT the gospel of Christ. But though we, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, should preach unto you any gospel other than that, which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. As we have said before, so say I now again, If ANY MAN preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA. For am I now seeking the favor of men or God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still pleasing men I should not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:6-10. Now we know that they preached another gospel because they did not preach the gospel that Paul preached. He did not have an alter call and he certainly never failed to teach his hears to obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1: 9-11). He taught them to be immersed (1Cor. 1: 10-12). You did not mention that any had been immersed. Nor did you tell us that they were taught to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of Sins. (Acts 2:38). They certainly did not preach Jesus in the same way that Phillip preached Him. In Acts 8: 35-40 we are told that Phillip preached unto him Jesus. That is all that we are told that Phillip preached unto the eunuch. Yet as a result of hearing Phillip preach Jesus the first thing to cross the eunuchs mind and the first question out of his mouth when he saw WATER was,  SEE HERE IS WATER WHAT DOETH HINDER ME FROM BEING BAPTIZED? Now it is interesting to note that the last thing that entered the minds of those who went to your PK alter call was WATER! In fact no one, NOT EVEN YOU, took the time to stand up and tell them the truth that they need to be immersed into Christ (Gal. 3: 27) for the remission of their sins (Acts 2:38). And you, brother, do not have the excuse of not knowing the truth. So it is clear that those who did the preaching in St. Petersburg did not preach Jesus the way Paul and Phillip, who were inspired by the Holy Spirit, preached it. Therefore they were not exposed to the gospel as you claim. Instead there we exposed to a false gospel, a different gospel from the gospel of Christ and Paul said that those who preached a different gospel should be ANATHAMA. But you say that men like Paul are  petty for he not only sat in the Judgement seat that Christ had given to the apostles and condemned those who preached a different gospel but he said, Let them be anathema. And Paul was not petty. Then you say, SHOULD THEY JUST DROP ALL OF THEIR BELIEFS AND GIVE IN TO ALL OF OURS? They should drop all of their beliefs that are not in harmony with the word of God and give into His Lordship. Yes, they should surrender to HIS will that is found only in the word of God. And we should do the same. Any beliefs, both theirs, and ours are meaningless unless they originate from the word of God. Alter calls along with the faith-only Calvinistic false doctrines associated with such, did not originate from the word of God. In fact, they are diametrically opposed to the gospel of Christ. Then you condemn us for criticizing what you call Gods work with these words: I BELIEVE YOU ALL ARE VERY PETTY TO SIT BACK IN YOUR JUDGEMENT SEATS AND CRITICIZE GOD'S WORK.  Brother, a perverted gospel is not Gods work. It is the work of the great deceiver of the world, Satan. You are therefore attending, with no intent to fight this perversion of the gospel, meetings where men are being deceived into thinking that they can be saved by following another gospel than the gospel of Christ. This is not merely petty; this is partaking in their evil deeds. John said,  Whosoever goeth onward and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, HATH NOT GOD: 2 John 9. But you say these, who are surely not teaching the doctrine of Christ which says, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: (Mark16: 16) are doing Gods Work. Who shall we believe, the apostle John or you? Then John says,  He that abideth in the teaching hath both the father and the son. 2 John 9. But you say they-that is those of us who are abiding in the teaching of Christ- are petty! Now whom shall we believe? The apostle John who was inspired by the Holy Spirit or you? Then the apostle John says,  if any one cometh to you, and BRING NOT THIS TEACHING, RECEIVE HIM NOT into your house, and GIVE HIM NO GREETING: The speakers at the PK meeting came to St Petersburg and they DID NOT BRING THE TEACHING OF CHRIST! You, brother, not only gave them WARM greetings but you attended their meetings and cowardly watched an alter call that was offering FALSE hope of salvation apart from the gospel of Christ our Lord and said NOTHING. Worse you then returned with excitement in your soul and told us that they had been EXPOSED to the gospel of Christ and you knew this to be completely false! You have therefore supported those whom John said you were to not even receive! Then John said,  HE THAT GIVETH HIM GREETING PARTAKETH IN HIS EVIL DEEDS. 2 John 11. You did more that give them a greeting, brother. You advocated their cause and judge and condemned those of us who have refused to give them a greeting. Therefore, according to the beloved apostle John you are a PARTAKER OF THEIR EVIL DEEDS. I pray for you brother that you will realize that we are calling upon people to submit to the teaching of Christ. Christians have no doctrine or beliefs of their own to which they ask people to submit. We have the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. Jude 3. This is the reason that we earnestly Contend for that faith. Jude 3. Then in your postscript you sanctimoniously asked what did we do tonight as if you had been involved in superior Christian activity. What I did tonight, and it is possible that others similar things, was study the word of God. Then I went to the chat room to contend for the faith against the PK supporters who did not show up at all. I then left the chat room and prayed with my wife for her father that he might live to obey the gospel of Christ and bring his family to Christ. Nothing as exciting as an emotionally charged room full of false teachers and their helpless disciples. Who were being deceived right in the very presence of several of the Lords servants who were having a great time while their fellowmen were offered a false hope of salvation without being obedient to the gospel of Christ. Will anyone ever get around to telling those poor lost souls the truth? But you can rest assured that what I did tonight was in harmony and in complete subjection to the will of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus the Christ. You can be equally sure that your giving greeting to those who came to St. Petersburg, and did not bring the teaching of Christ and remaining silent while souls who wanted to be saved were taught a false gospel was partaking in their evil deeds. And that such behavior was in complete rebellion against our blessed and only Lord Jesus Christ. I pray that you will surrender to the Lord and begin to contend for the faith in the name of Christ rather than compromise with false teachers against our Lord.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Mr. Muse,

I wrote... "I believe that it is possible to glean Godly wisdom and insight from those outside the Resotoration Movement."

You wrote... "Do you believe that it is possible to glean Godly wisdom and insight from those outside of Christ? 1 Tim 6:3-5 says, "If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited {and} understands nothing..."

I applaud your ability to debate. You Sir, are much better at it than I am. However, I believe that you are trying to put words in my mouth where none were intended.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Hey Nate,

Mr. Muse is a Mrs.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Mrs. Muse,

Begging your pardon for the misallocation of gender.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Mr. Graham,

No need to apologize!!

I was not putting words into your mouth...I was only asking a question. I do believe we are on the same side of this debate.

Your Sis,

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Mrs. Muse,

While I am sure that we are on the same side of this particular debate, I have the strangest feeling that we differ on plethora of other fundamental values and ideas. Please forgive me if I sense that you were trying to put words in my mouth. (If I sensed wrongly, I am sorry.) It DID seem to me that you were trying to tie me to a scripture that I think was taken out of context for this particular usage. I DO think that it is possible to glean GODLY wisdom from Christians AND non-christians alike. All you have to do is stand in a room full of them for 10 minutes and you will exclaim "Oh, THAT'S what He meant!" Wisdom is simply the right application of knowledge.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Mr. Graham,

I appreciate the apology.

You wrote, "I DO think that it is possible to glean GODLY wisdom from Christians AND non-christians alike. All you have to do is stand in a room full of them for 10 minutes and you will exclaim "Oh, THAT'S what He meant!" Wisdom is simply the right application of knowledge.

Here we disagree...I do not think it is possible to glean Godly wisdom form non-christians. 1 Cor 2:12-14 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Mr. Graham,

I think I am understanding your statements...the light bulb finally came on. Yes, I agree with you that we can understand what "He" meant by observing believers and non-believers.

My question is can we learn from a non-christian who is trying to teach Spiritual things?

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Lee:

I think it depends on the broadness of the brush with which you paint the definition "non-Christian", the subject of a lot of discussion here. There are at least two approaches that you can take that I think are probably correct:

1) All truth is truth, no matter what mouth it comes out of. Stephen Jay Gould would not be my first choice for a science teacher, but I could learn a lot about advanced math from him. To take it a step closer to the question at hand, I don't want to find any doctrine from the Mormans coming into my Sunday School class, but I could certainly learn some about the concepts of committed service from their mission mindset.

No, I can't learn truly spiritual things from people who reject basic Christianity, but there is truth that I would do well to take from them. The biggest objection to that would be that those truths would surely be available from someone more orthodox, if I would take the time and make the effort to find them.

2) On the other hand, if the term "non-Christian" is applied to "denominational believers" who do not share my understanding of the efficacy of baptism, then I think the answer changes, to a certain degree. For instance, I am no Calvinist, but R. C. Sproul has brought out in me a greater diligence in studying and knowing the Scriptures, and in approaching God with a more complete view of His holiness, and what that means to my approach, than I have known before. Chuck Swindoll has taught me many valuable lessons on the graciousness of God, and how I am to embody that in my relationships with both Christians and non-believers. And few would dispute the positive effect that James Dobson has had on the spiritual life of America's families.

So from this perspective, I think that spiritual value CAN be gleaned from the "denominational world", although one must do so with discernment.

The presence of the thorn does not lessen the beauty of the rose. It DOES make you more careful about how you enjoy it.

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

Excellent post! Well-written... to the point (a thorny point!) and very illustrative.

The week is young, but this post is in the running for the much coveted "Post of the Week" award. The winner will receive an all expense paid trip to beautiful Chiefland Florida, with accommodations at a 5-star parsonage guest room, and daily calling and revival speaking opportunities. Void where prohibited by law.

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

Sam,

Here, here!! -and- Ditto!

For me, I have learned many great things from Dr. Charles Stanley, however, with all that knowledge his stance on Baptism infuriates me. There are thinghs right in front of his nose that he refuses to accept because of his "pendulum swing" away from baptism. Yet, he has a great many insights on other biblical truths. In the end the Spirit gives each one of us discernment... I pray that we all use it when listening to those outside (and inside) of the Restoration Movement!

-- Anonymous, October 12, 1999

Let me ask one more time,

I was just wondering if anyone has thought more of taking up the challenge that was mentioned earlier. Provide teachers and baptistries to the next PK event in your area. May also have a church directry handy in order to suggest a congregation to attend in their home town. (May just be a good training ground. Teach Christians before going, let them practice, and come home and teach some more.)

There may be some truth to: If you aren't part of the solution, then you may just be part of the problem?

Don't you love a challenge? Dave

-- Anonymous, October 20, 1999

Brothers, Pardon the lengthy post.

Many of us have been challenged to present facts as to why the Promise Keeper Movement is to be avoided. The following is an answer to those claims. Many Scriptures have been noted that commands Christians to not wish them god speed or unite with them. This has all been trashed by those who are of the opposing view. Those men who came forward recited the sinners prayer! How do I know? Some of my friends were there to see and report the truth. I have stated this fact time and again, but no one will reply. So here it is, either get mad, get sad, or get glad. The choice is yours.

PK Is Not OK!!!

When anything is created ideas are fresh and zeal is high. Principles drive the architects, and truth is their taskmaster, image motivates the unprincipled. The true movers and shakers are those who build. They are the ones who built God's Bible Colleges and camp meetings. The problems begin when the unprincipled image makers arrive on the scene, who have never built anything, and decide that the "old values" are too extreme, that those values are out of touch with our "modern" era. This has happened, not only, in our nation, but also in some of our bible colleges and churches. We are failing not because we have lost the power that comes from Christ. It is because we have lost our vision. The status quo has replaced Restoration as our plea.

P.K.'s problems go deeper than their leaders. They go completely to the core. They teach that you can disobey Jesus and still get to heaven. Even those in our brotherhood promote their godless teaching. Victor Knowles reports, to the celebration of trumpets, that P.K. is going to have portable baptisteries at their next meeting. What good are these, if they use them like they use their Bibles? Salvation is not in the "sinners prayer," and baptisteries are worthless unless the complete counsel of God is preached! This reasoning is nothing new, Satan has been behind every movement that seeks to devalue God. He always dresses these movements with outer garments of "respectability and truth," but inwardly they are full of dead men's bones. There is no life in P.K., just death and a day when all who have succumbed to it's false teaching must stand before Jesus.

Why is it that many in the denominational community see the danger of P.K., while those in the Restoration Movement continue to stick their heads in the sand? The following are quotes from the denominational world.

PROMISE KEEPERS MEMPHIS '96 by Jerry Huffman, Editor, Calvary Contender Calvary Baptist Church, Huntsville, Alabama The following report is from the Promise Keepers Men's Conference in Memphis, Tenn., Oct. 11-12 was one of 22 such conferences this year. This reporter was granted Press credentials and attended the Saturday sessions as part of the media, but was unable to attend the two Friday night sessions.

The Liberty Bowl stadium was filled almost to capacity. More than 52,000 registered in advance at $60 per person. The fee for those paying on the day of the conference was $70 per person. More than $3 million was expected to be generated that weekend through ticket sales alone.

IN CONCLUSION: This writer strongly believes that Promise Keepers is a massive and deceptive tool of Satan in his ploy to mix truth and error. An ecumenical organization cannot strengthen a fundamental Bible-believing church. PK has a kernel of truth/good, but it's encased in a toxic shell. Be warned, be wise, beware!

PASTOR'S RESPONSE TO PK "WAKE UP CALL" by Pastor Jackie Battles, Liberty Baptist Church Stephens City, VA

A few months ago we received a letter to have a "wake up call" for the area pastors in order to began a local Promise Keepers movement. This was our response.

First, there can be no unity outside of truth. It is the truth that will set us free -- not the compromise of truth. Jesus never tried to unify the Pharisees with his little band of disciples. Yet these Pharisee would be welcomed today into such a group as the PK movement. The fact of the matter is, He tells us to beware of the "leaven" of the Pharisee. He knew that a little leaven would permeate the whole batch. To disregard truth for the sake of "unity" is sin. Jesus did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34 -- "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Jesus did not seek to unify error and truth, but rather to change the error. He drew a line in the sand, and declared there were values and truths worth more than unity. He commands that we hold to all His truths, not sliced bits that suit our fancy. You might think this unification is a noble effort, it is not, at least not without the changing of men's hearts toward the truth.

Next, consider Paul's admonition to the Corinthians that they were carnal. Do you know why they were carnal? They were divided, and Paul rightly deduced that division meant there were heresies being taught. And what were the heresies that divided them? The things that the PK says are "non-essential", such as baptism, spiritual gifts, the Lord's Supper etc., 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 -- "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"

This church was not in fellowship because there was division. How then can the PK unify us when we have so many differences as to the mode and purpose of baptism, the uses of spiritual gifts, the reason and method for the Lord's Supper, etc., You may meet, but you can never be unified. Then, notice something else very significant in this same book. 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. These two verses of Scripture are direct references to the Lord's Supper and the way the Corinthians had "abused" this ordinance. Note that some of these church members were sick and many had died because they ate the Lord's Supper for the wrong reason! Think about it! The very things the PK says do not matter so disturbed God that he deprived many among the Corinthians of their health, or their very lives! God demonstrated in a real way just how important these "non-essentials" were. Will you dare tell God these principles are unimportant?

Next, are there really only five important principles in the New Testament? Revelation 22:18-19 -- "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Why such a solemn warning if there are only five important principles? Consider this: The great commission in Matthew 28:19-20 is one of the seven promises of a PK but not a part of the statement of faith, is it now a "non-essential". Christ's death for His church (Eph. 5:25) is now disposable. Will there really be a great white throne of judgment as found in Revelation 20:11 or is it, too, without significance? Don't forget the reality of Hell in Luke 16. What about baptism? Will it ever matter now if you are sprinkled or immersed? Do the elements of the Lord's Supper really become the literal body of Jesus? This just names a few of the hundreds of important "essentials" in the New Testament that really are not negotiable.

It is left up to you to decide whether it is important to believe in Hell, or judgment, or evangelizing the world. You decide if the PK groups are right when they compromise truths for the sake of unity. A few years ago there was a tremendous outcry when Readers Digest gave us a "compact" Bible by abridging the sacred Scriptures. What is the difference between what they did and what the PK wants to do? You will no longer be able to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 3) This is only the first step toward a greater compromise; anything else will be easy to swallow. Maybe you don't care if you are compromising what you believe for the sake of unity. I think you do, else you would not have built your church and made your stand. Baptists have never been Protestant, but according to the PK the Protestant reformation was a joke. Luther, Calvin, Wesley and others who separated themselves from Rome should have kept silent for the sake of unity. They should have stayed with the Catholic Church. Deep in your heart you know that some principles are worth standing for. Some things are worth squaring your jaw, setting your feet, and saying "Here I stand."

When you join the PK movement you are saying "it makes no difference, we are working for the same cause." But it will be a lie! Even those who tout such a utopia through unification know they do not believe such a thing! Indeed, number three of the five basic principles of belief causes division. One group believes you must be baptized, take communion, go to confession, etc., in order to be saved. Another group believes you are saved by the additional agents of water and works, another by manifestation of spiritual gifts, another by doing good, another by holding out faithful, others by secret rites; a few believe the Blood of Christ is sufficient without works, or tongues, or church membership. There is not even agreement on this one basic principle.

Jesus required His disciples to come out from the world and be separate. 2 Corinthians 6:16-17 -- "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." Notice these verses and see if they tell you to unite, or separate: Romans 16:17 -- "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." 1 Corinthians 5:11 -- "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 -- "And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed." 2 John 10-11 -- "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." Titus 3:10-11 -- "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." Galatians 1:7-9 -- "Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

I can see nothing in these scriptures that would allow us to unite, in any meeting, with those who pervert the Gospel. Folks, we don't need the PK or any other "alternate" church group! Any right principles that the PK promotes are church matters and not PK matters. God left into the hands of the local church -- not the PK -- the authority to go into all the world. She, the local church, is the pillar and ground of the truth. She is to bind and loose on earth, not the PK. Granted churches have failed to do what they were expect to do at times, but that does not justify the creation of an organization to supplant the church and her authority. Jesus did not try to make exceptions and allowances when truth hung in the balance. He required, demanded, that His followers follow Him, every jot and tittle. He never allowed His people to pick and choose those doctrines "most important" and allow everything else to become negotiable.

We must never forget John 14:26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Jesus never left the apostles or, for that matter, God's people today directionless. We have the Word of God as our only rule and authority. Let us use what God has already given us and quit searching for something, that in the end, will never satisfy. Many Christians seem to be on a proverbial treasure hunt, not realizing that the treasure has already been given to them in the Word of God. My hope and prayer is that we trust God and not PK to lead us to victory.

Your humble servant in Christ,

Jim

With this in mind I leave you

-- Anonymous, October 20, 1999