Do you feel like all of these tragedies and natural disasters and things are due to the year 2000 coming up? Do you think people are over-reacting? Do your fear for New Year's Eve?

Are people getting out of control? Is our world changing faster than we can keep up with?

Or are we all just being a little silly and need to calm down? Come on, Chicken Littles out there, tell us if the sky is falling.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

Answers

Pamie,

I guess I'll be the first one to step up with the controversy. All of the events that are taking place now are biblical. What strikes me as ironic is that everyone walks around saying, "What's going on? Why is this happening?"

Jesus said very clearly what was going to happen in the last days. We see it coming to pass, and people still walk around "wondering" why things are the way they are. I believe that most refuse to see the truth, as they are happy with their own truths. This is something that never ceases to amaze me.

Do you realize that in the last 10 years we have had more earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, tornados and "natural" diasters than at any time in history? Jesus again told us this would happen.

I don't want to pulpitize your forum Pamie, but I have to say this. There is a verse of scripture in the bible that says (I'm paraphrasing)

"A day in the life of the lord is a thousand years to man"

It was approximately 5000 years from Adam to the Death of Christ. It has been approximately 2000yrs from his death to now. Just in case anyone has forgotten, the "AD" as in 2000 A.D. stands for After Death of Christ.

So from Adam to the year 2000 is approximately 7000yrs, give or take a few years as man's recording of time and history is not the most accurate. I think we're accurate within 5-8yrs. The Point? 7000yrs to us is like 7 days to God.

The Seventh Day is also called "The Sabbath". The Sabbath translated from the ancient Hebrew means "The Lords Day", or "Day of the Lord". Well guess what 2000 signifies? The beginning of the seventh day, or the day of the Lord.

I honestly believe that Jesus is coming. I believe that we will see him in our lifetime. The bible tells us that no man will know the day or the hour, but we will know the season. I believe we are in that season, and I believe that within the next 10 years we will see his return.

The reason I believe this is simple. God said in the book of revelations, that when these things came to pass that we would know he was God. Don't take my word for it folks, pick up the bible and read what it has to say about the return of Christ. Remember this book was written 2000yrs ago.

I know that I have now labled myself as a religious fanatic, and that's fine because I am. Yes, I am a "Jesus freak".

Pamie, I know you might consider me a "Chicken Little", and to an extent I would agree with you with 2 major exceptions.

#1. It is not the sky that is falling, it is the approaching kingdom.

#2. and most importantly, I am in NO WAY afraid, as a matter of fact I both encourage and welcome it.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

I am one of those people who doesn't get overly anxious about stuff like local storms or widespread, mostly unfounded future worries. For some reason I think that because nothing really disastrous has happened to me before, it's probably not going to happen now. I realize this isn't necessarily true, but I just can't make myself get dramatic about things like Y2K problems and Floyd, until they happen. Floyd came as close as our bordering states, and the Atlanta news teams were all loosening their ties and assuring us they would stay with the storm as long as it took to keep us up to the minute on the horrors of it all. I heard we might get 80 mph winds at one point. Now, Floyd is gone and we got maybe a whisper of wind, and not even got a drop of rain.

Things always seem to work out fine in the long run, but because of that, I will most likely be the least prepared person when tragedy does strike. I am not really worried about Y2K stuff. My computer at work is ready for it, I am not planning on leaving the house on New Year's Eve, and I doubt we will stock up on canned goods, candles and flares in case Georgia Power blows up at the stroke of 12:01 on 1-1-00, because I just don't think it's going to happen. I don't expect looters to comb through our neighborhood, but if they do, we have protection. I don't expect the end of the world, but if it comes, we'll probably never know what hit us.

I AM slightly concerned about the bank and money situation. Not because I think the banks computer systems are going to go flooey and lose all our money, but because everyone is so damn freaked out and planning to yank all their money out of the bank at the end of the year 'just in case'. Can you imagine what would happen if just 75% of the nation pulled their money out of banks at once? That thought makes ME want to yank my money out of the bank, but then I would only be contributing to the problem. Not that my piddly little balance could really do any damage - not alone anyway, but add it to everyone else's and there could be a real problem. I don't know what to do about that, and probably won't decide until the last minute.

Other than that, I'm just kinda going with the flow, waiting to see how it all comes out.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

A.D. atands for "Anno Domini," not "After the Death of Christ."

Furthermore, Christ died in approximately 30 A.D. So if we have to wait 2000 years after his death, we have another 30 years to go.

And also, we have exactly the same amount of natural disasters now than we have always had. People are just paranoid.

M.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

I really hate to be splitting hairs here about Todd's post, but A.D. doesn't not stand for "After Death" meaning after Jesus' death. A.D. stands for Anno Domini meaning "in the year of the Lord" in Latin. This is the reason why the scientific world maintains their dating system as BC (Before Common Era) and CE(Common Era).

Keep in mind that because of the increase in communication technology in the last 10-30, we are able to hear about many more "catastrophic" events first hand than our predecessors ever heard in a lifetime! That alone can account for the increase in Natural Disasters, not to mention the fact that the world is hell of a lot more densely populated now than it was even 30-40 years ago, so any natural disaster will affect some group of humans.

As far as my feelings on whether we are hitting on the end of the world - it's very possible. But, I'm not going to get extremely worried over it. If it happens, it happens. We have always known that the Earth as we know it was not like this before Humans were here and it is always changing. We have never had complete control over our lives and honestly we have no clue of what "power" does have the control be it the muses, fates, God, mother nature, whoever! And as far as one religion being over another - WHO KNOWS WHICH ONE IS RIGHT?? Pardon me if I heard this from someone on here or something (I just can't remember), but what if when we get to whereever we're going and "the head honcho" judges us on how many times we kissed a worm? And if the answer is "none", you end up in some limbo where you have to kiss all the worms and love them lots. *G* Not to start a huge debate, but those are my thoughts... as long as I've lived a good, honest, friendly life then I know I can go out happy.

But I still won't kiss any worms...

Annie

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

Sorry about that Meg...

Didn't realize you beat me to the punch with the AD bit. A.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

Meg,

I don't want to get into an argument with you, but you might do a little more research into the term "A.D.". I am fully aware of the term "Anno Domini", are you farmiliar wih the term "Anno Diocletian"? Before you start correcting people, you might know a little more about the subject. I have included the following below so that you might refresh on the subject. These are but 2 terms describing AD. I believe there are 4 more, and yes. After Death (as illustrated below) is one of them.

The calendars treated in this chapter, except for the Chinese calendar, have counts of years from initial epochs. In the case of the Chinese calendar and some calendars not included here, years are counted in cycles, with no particular cycle specified as the first cycle. Some cultures eschew year counts altogether but name each year after an event that characterized the year. However, a count of years from an initial epoch is the most successful way of maintaining a consistent chronology. Whether this epoch is associated with an historical or legendary event, it must be tied to a sequence of recorded historical events. This is illustrated by the adoption of the birth of Christ as the initial epoch of the Christian calendar. This epoch was established by the sixth-century scholar Dionysius Exiguus, who was compiling a table of dates of Easter. An existing table covered the nineteen-year period denoted 228-247, where years were counted from the beginning of the reign of the Roman emperor Diocletian. Dionysius continued the table for a nineteen-year period, which he designated Anni Domini Nostri Jesu Christi 532-550. Thus, Dionysius' Anno Domini 532 is equivalent to Anno Diocletian 248. In this way a correspondence was established between the new Christian Era and an existing system associated with historical records. What Dionysius did not do is establish an accurate date for the birth of Christ. Although scholars generally believe that Christ was born some years before A.D. 1, the historical evidence is too sketchy to allow a definitive dating.

Source: Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac, P. Kenneth Siedelman

Although this point is not really THAT relevant. We are simply looking for a starting timeline. As man's recording of time has not always been accurate. To quote you, "Christ died in approximately 30 A.D." as you stated yourself, that is an approximation. For the sake of argument though, I will just agree that he may have passed in approx 30AD. It still does not change the timeline from Adam til now. Approx 7000yrs.

What evidence do you base your statement "And also, we have exactly the same amount of natural disasters now than we have always had. People are just paranoid." upon? Certainly not real data, and if so I would love to see it.

I don't feel paranoid in the slightest, and I know for a FACT the we have had more natural disasters in the last decade then in the first 88 years of this century combined. I am also talking about world- wide. Not just the US.

My statement was based on recorded history from the years of 1989 to 1999. Everything from National Disaster reports to almanacs. If you'd like I will be more than happy to provide sources there as well.

I love it when people make statements like your yet offer no evidence to support it. I think maybe your paranoid.

Don't worry folks, "we have exactly the same amount of natural disasters now than we have always had. People are just paranoid." everything is fine. :)

Somehow I knew this would happen. Sorry Pamie.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

Don't wanna split hairs with you either Annie, missed your post. See above.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

All of this talk is scaring me. I know where I'm going when I die, I just don't like to sit and think about how I'm going to get there.

I've gotta go eat some Pop-Tarts to cheer myself up now.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

Oh, Pamie honey, how could you?

I am not going to contribute too much. I have way too much work for the bolt of lightening to stike today.

But I will say this. I do not agree on the increase of Natural Disasters. I'm sure I could find information to support this claim as a whole but I do not have time.

So let's talk earthquakes.

1969-1978....approx 152 major earthquakes.....approx 8 great earthquakes

1979-1988....approx 110 major earthquakes....approx 4 great earthquakes

1989-1998....approx 137 major earthquakes...approx 8 great earthquakes

The number of earthquakes did increase in the 90's but only when compared to the 80's, not when compared to the 70's.

My source? The National Earthquake Information Center

and to quote them, "A partial explanation may lie in the fact that in the last twenty years, we have definitely had an increase in the number of earthquakes we have been able to locate each year. This is because of the tremendous increase in the number of seismograph stations in the world and the many improvements in GLOBAL COMMUNICATIONS. "

love yourself

believe in what you choose to believe

peace

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

I don't think anything that has been added to this thread is inappropriate, so there's no need to apologize. I put this here because people always want a reason, they want something to put their faith in, or an explanation for things beyond their control. I'm curious what other people do to calm their fears or to rationalize events that they couldn't predict.

It's true that the reason we are aware of more of these events is because we have better tracking devices and can access information quicker than we ever could before. It's also true that because of the quick (and sometimes unreliable) information we can get, we could easily go into a panic mode.

I saw on the news once an article about how other countries are going to use chemical warfare on the US if we ever got into a war situation. Instead of bombing us, they'd release Anthrax or Ebola on just one city, or in one airplane, and sit back and watch the American public go into such a panic mode that the government wouldn't be able to control us or have us desire to fight back.

I do think New Years Eve is going to have the highest reported number of murders, accidents and riots/looting that they've ever reported. We think Woodstock 99 was bad. I don't think we've seen anything yet. The mob mentality is amazing.

Not trying to be a downer, but CNN this morning wasn't exactly cheerful.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

Misty,

Thanks for providing the info on the earthquakes, as you can see they are increasing fromn the previous decade. While earthquakes are part of the natural diasters. I am not saying we are having more of each, but more overall. I should have been more specific. You would think I would have learned that from the After Death comment I made earlier. So let me re-phrase.

The number of "natural" diasters combined (ie: floods, earthquakes, tornado's hurricanes, volcanos etc..) have not only increased, but increased in severity, over the last 10 years.

I will post the data later.

Pamie, I think it's cool that you throw out the meat and let the lions wrestle! I love that kind of forum.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

Can I make a comment? This discussion about time, about years, etc. is all irrelevent. Time, years, dates, is all concept. It is a concept humans have created. If you go for some time with out looking at clocks at calendars, you will not know what time has passed. This is because WE HAVE CREATED IT IN OUR MINDS. All this deliberation about what year Jesus was born or died or even what year it is, what A.D. means, it's all ridiculous. We have created time, only the earth can destroy it.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

I had the idea to ask that same question on an online forum one day in late July when it was dark out, we were watching movies, and because of some strange trick of light that my living room played on me I was convinced that everything outside was covered with snow for about five minutes. I asked, and my friends said, "yes, sure it is". I didn't quite catch the sarcasm, so five minutes later I said, "man, I can't believe it's snowing in July. Do you think it has anything to do with the year 2000 approaching? And they laughed at me and turned on the light.

But really, I'm just scared that if not enough people believe that something MIGHT happen, then something will, just to punish them. That is my twisted perception of reality. Everyone, try to be open-minded about the new year but hope for the best, and we'll all be fine.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

Pamie is so right about New Years Eve. I use to go to Vegas every new year. This year I am not going to leave my apartment, not for anything. I am so afraid of people and of what they can do.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

i have to say that the world will exist until our sun turns into a red giant sometime 6 billion years from now (unless a black hole swallows us up or something like that). as for all the crap going on lately, maybe it's just the end of mankind. i know mankind has convinced itself that without us here, the planet would just shrivel up and die, but that is not at all right. the planet, in fact, might be in a lot better shape after we're gone than it is now. read Galapagos, but Kurt Vonnegut Jr. come on. you can believe the lies if you want. but the truth is ou

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

The belief that numbers _cause_ things to happen is a superstition called numerology. I am not a numerologist, precisely because I know how numbers can be manipulated by humans to fit whatever mold they want. I don't find it surprising that some people still believe that for example, the date changing can cause the 'end times' to come. Numerology has always beset humankind since Pythagoras. It shows up in the Christian Bible a lot, and other ancient texts. Remember 666? As a hobby, I like to convert friends' names into 666 using gematria. I guess that reveals my attitude toward such things the most clearly.

So, yes, Pamie, our world is changing faster than we can keep up with. Even in our supposedly scientific age, people persist in maintainining outdated forms of thinking, i.e. superstitions, 'magical' thinking. These people are obsolete. They are out of touch with the knowledge and progress that has been made in the last few hundred years. The world is now a complicated place, and it must be comforting to some to believe the rapture is coming in 2000...but not me: I don't think I'm going to go stick my head in the sand any time soon.

The only thing I fear about New Year's Eve are possible fanatics going around trying to 'speed up' the 'end times' process, because things aren't going as badly as they wish.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

maybe it's just cos i'm only 17 and haven't had the wisening of age or some sort of insanely religious experience that caused me to believe otherwise, but i'm honestly not too worried about the world ending. it's a thought that scares me to death, but it seems so.. science fiction. call me a doubting thomas.

however, i ain't going nowhere on new year's eve. i think my best friend and neighbor will come over (or i over there) and we'll lock the doors and hope for a thunderstorm or something. i just know some idiots are going to do something stupid everywhere.

it would suck if the world ended before i really had a chance to live in it. i graduate in june.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999

Odd, isn't it, how A.D. stands for After Death of Christ, when Christ was a Jew who never spoke a word of English in his entire life? Not the modern English of Shakespeare, or even the Old English of Chaucer. Nope, no English for the Son of God. And Diocletian lived, what, over a God's Day earlier than Chaucer?

And if A.D. stands for After Death, and B.C. stands for Before Christ, when did Christ live, before he was born, or after he was dead?

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

You're joking, right Todd?

I mean really. No seriously. C'mon.

First let me just say that nothing pisses me off more than smug self assurance based in nothing other than one's personal beliefs that then belittles the beliefs or non-beliefs of others. You like to quote people, attack their off-handed comments, then add this :). You know what, I was wrong- nothing pisses me off more than zealotry followed by :).

But thanks for letting me be comfortable in my beliefs. I believe in carbon dating, which throws your numbers off a little, T-Dog. I also believe than human beings are flawed by nature. That includes you, me, the prophets, the various monks who were employed by a corrupt church to translate the bible, everybody. It doesn't matter how pure the water is, if you pass it through that much poop, you'll get poopy water. So you'll have to just be amused by my imperfect nature if I don't trust the Bible, the Koran, the Tora, etc. entirely and choose to trust instead my own relationship with God which tells me that while we're undergoing an awful lot of changes, the world isn't ending in the next 10 years.

I think it's just that all of the changes are scary. Those who start a religion must realize that it will have a period of decline, and it's only natural that they would say "When nobody believes us, bad things will happen and everyone will die." It keeps membership up.

But just in case, I'm going to go enjoy myself. Till Tuesday

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

'be true to yourself and you will never fall' - mike d (i think) fuck it if it happens one group will be like 'i told you so , now who looks silly' so we cant win. the natural disasters , well could be coincidence? or the fact that several 'great nations' decided to play "insert religious icon here" with too many pollutants/weapons and now we all get freaky weather every now and then could be the reason. for the coming doom/terror/apocalypse , well it seems at present to only be stemming from gun toting nuts or militia style gangs or happy concert goers...........who will soon move on to new hobbies when the y2k has passed. i know todd will see this as immature or ignorant but it all seems to be another case of pmt (please dont make me have to type out this acronym) anyway it is late , and my spelling/punctuation is attrocious

-good day to you all.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

The world is not ending. I mean, in the course of history of just English-speaking people, the calendars have been changed more than once. Time is a very arbitrary concept. As for there being more shootings, etc. in the US in the past year- well, people are crazy. They are chaotic. It does not signify the end of the world, or the coming of the Messiah, or a shift in the Earth's polarity.

*sigh* People worry me.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

"... if you pass it through that much poop you'll get poopy water.." laugh i did... i suppose you could say the same thing about the accuracy of carbon dating... and the bible isnt translated by monks who are supported by a corrupt church anymore... a lot of the poop has been cleaned up, and the water is a little cleaner... :) dont want to debate the accuracy of bible translation, but it just isnt right to blame the monks!!(not pamies) this whole end of the millenium is interesting though.. the world is changing... the next 3 months should be interesting... i look forward to 2000.. maybe people will be nicer....

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

It's times like this that I'm happy I'm an atheist. Actually, it's all times that I'm happy I'm an atheist, but I'm particularly happy today.

All the year 2000 means is that we can finally stop hearing that damn Prince song. Yeefuckinhaw.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

--You're joking, right Todd?--

No Andy, I'm not.

--First let me just say that nothing pisses me off more than smug self assurance based in nothing other than one's personal beliefs that then belittles the beliefs or non-beliefs of others.--

Andy, I'm sorry if you felt that I was belittleing someone elses beliefs, it certainly was not my intention. I don't believe that I attacked or insulted anyone else's beliefs here, and if I did please show me where. As a matter of fact, if anything, I feel that I am the one who has been belittled.

You know what I hate? I hate it when people make statements that they cannot backup with factual evidence. All I am saying is, if you're going to make a statement, have some source or referrence based in fact to back it up.

My "smug self-assurance" is NOT based SOLEY on my "own personal beliefs", but documented hard facts, but since we're on the subject...

What makes you take the positions you take on issues Andy? Isn't it what YOU believe to be true? Isn't it some science book that you read? Or some discovery channel special? Isn't that the whole reason that you disagree with me? You are stating what YOU believe to be fact, as am I. All I am saying is, if you're going to attack what I believe to be true, then show me facts that prove what you say. Let your belief stand on it's own merit.

--You like to quote people, attack their off-handed comments, then add this :). You know what, I was wrong- nothing pisses me off more than zealotry followed by :).--

Well yes, I like to quote people. If you say something, I will quote it (as I am with your text also) as to make sure that there is no confusion, and that I am not "putting anything in anyones mouth" so to speak. What's wrong with repeating something that someone said?

--But thanks for letting me be comfortable in my beliefs. I believe in carbon dating, which throws your numbers off a little, T-Dog.--

Look for my new album with Dr. Dre "T-Dog and Dre: Staright out of Compton"! Tell me how carbon dating "throws my numbers off a little".

--I also believe than human beings are flawed by nature.--

As do I. We agree on this.

--That includes you, me,--

I'll agree yet again.

--the prophets,--

Who are the "prophets" you speak of?

--the various monks who were employed by a corrupt church to translate the bible, everybody.--

This is what I am talking about. Where do you get this information? What do you base the statement "various monks who were employed by a corrupt church to translate the bible" on? What evidence do you have to support this claim?

--It doesn't matter how pure the water is, if you pass it through that much poop, you'll get poopy water. So you'll have to just be amused by my imperfect nature if I don't trust the Bible, the Koran, the Tora, etc. entirely and choose to trust instead my own relationship with God which tells me that while we're undergoing an awful lot of changes, the world isn't ending in the next 10 years.--

And you are most welcome to that belief. You have also misquoted me.

Hey look Andy, I'll do it to myself. I said "I honestly believe that Jesus is coming. I believe that we will see him in our lifetime. The bible tells us that no man will know the day or the hour, but we will know the season. I believe we are in that season, and I believe that within the next 10 years we will see his return. "

THAT is why I quote people, you might consider giving it a try to avoid confusion. I DON'T believe that our world will be ending in the next 10 years either.

I DO believe that Jesus will return in the next 10 years though. I don't think it matters to God if you believe that or not, it's just my opinion based on what I have read, studied, and believe to be true.

--I think it's just that all of the changes are scary. Those who start a religion must realize that it will have a period of decline, and it's only natural that they would say "When nobody believes us, bad things will happen and everyone will die." It keeps membership up.--

Well, Jesus said it to the disciples approximately 2000 years ago, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father, but through me."

This is what I believe. If you believe differently, that's fine with me. I respect that. I am only asking for the same respect. You can disagree, a lot of people do.

It just seems so funny to me that people are so ready to cite that men wrote the bible, men are flawed, thus the bible is not reliable or somehow it's been convoluted over the years.

Yet, they'll turn right around and believe a man that says we evolved from monkeys.

I just don't understand why people are so afraid of the thought of a creator... but that is a whole other forum!:)

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

I'm not afraid of a creator. My Mom & Dad love me very much. :-)

I think everybody needs a serious dose of long-term perspective. Our planet has been here for umpteen billions of years; we've been along for the ride for a few thousand thereof. During the time of human kind alone, there have been ice ages, meteor strikes, wars, famines, pestilence, gout, skunky beers and Full House. A plethora of natural disasters, with emphasis on the word natural.

If you think about it, the world is changing every day, so every day - every moment - is the end of the world as we know it.

2000 - it's just a number, an arbitrary label placed on the annum. Isn't it something like 5760 on the Jewish calendar?

Let's try something new for the next millenium when it starts on Jan 1, 2001. Let's not keep jumping to immediate conclusions and not blow things out of proportion.

Some things happen because they just do.

As an aside, if only to fan the flames, how are we going know it's Jesus if and when he shows up? The modern image we have of him has only been around since the middle ages. What if he shows up as a woman, or as a man in a different shape or colour? What if he's gay?

Personally, I think he's been back numerous times, in different guises all across the world. Don't you think Ghandhi had some of the same qualities? Or Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.? Mohammed was around some 700 years after Jesus; perhaps he returned to fill those shoes.

I'd like to close by quoting Doris Day;

Que Sera Sera; whatever will be will be; the future's not ours to see; Que sera sera

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Much of the following is from and entry from my own journal, that I have since removed, because people hate my boring rants for some reason. If you've seen this before, sorry for sounding like a broken record--

Todd's Assumed Fact:

That the New Testament is the literal word of God, and any questioning of that is wrong.

Mike's Interpretation Of Todd's Assumed Fact:

For God to allow Man to distribute His message, well, who else but Man would try to sell that idea?

From what I know of people, between libel, typos, book-burnings, and just plain human error, we don't handle media communications very well. Handing over His Holy User Guide to Man is simply the best way to corrupt the message He wants to distribute.

How can anyone honestly believe that organized religions aren't influenced by the personal agendas of those preaching? A child robbing a candy store can hold up the insurance policy that covers the store for all losses, but that doesn't change that he is still a child, and he is still stealing.

Actual Fact:

Bibles are books first, and whatever else they are second.

Todd's Assumed Fact:

Jesus Works.

Mike's Interpretation Of Todd's Assumed Fact:

Placed in the hands of Man, the New Testament does more harm than good. Christ's core message is that, to love others, our enemies, and ourselves, equally, is the best way to live, because God is really a nice guy, and will reward you after you die. (Does the phrase Turning the other cheek stick out in anyone else's mind?) The problem with that message is that it has been too easily interpreted as a license to do evil.

Does anyone doubt that men don't love the wives they beat? Does anyone doubt that the Spanish Inquisition didn't love the witches they burned? Does anyone doubt that Bill Clinton felt our pain while cheating on his wife? Hey, these guys are all going to Heaven, aren't they?

I've even heard that Josef Mengele would play with Jewish children before he sent them to the gas chamber. These are people who's love nobody needs.

Christ needed to clarify that if you really love someone, do them a favor, and try not to love them to death.

Actual Fact:

If there's a Hell, love, and being a Christian, carries very little influence on who burns and who doesn't. Todd, I'd start sleeping in asbestos underwear if I were you, just in case.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

...and I don't doubt that there's a Hell.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

...and I don't doubt that monkeys are decent people.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Well Ron, I'm glad you asked.

First I want to establish if we are going to talk about the historical Jesus then I will be using the Bible as my source as this is the only accurate source I know of pertaining to the person of Jesus and his teachings. If you have another source, let me know.

--As an aside, if only to fan the flames, how are we going know it's Jesus if and when he shows up? The modern image we have of him has only been around since the middle ages. What if he shows up as a woman, or as a man in a different shape or colour? What if he's gay?--

I am glad you asked! Well according to the bible, which is also the source that says he will return, it also tells us how he'll return.

An excerpt from Scripture below:

Matt 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Revelation 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. (12) His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. (13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. (14) The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. (16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

--Personally, I think he's been back numerous times, in different guises all across the world. Don't you think Ghandhi had some of the same qualities? Or Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.? Mohammed was around some 700 years after Jesus; perhaps he returned to fill those shoes.--

What is your source for this belief Ron?

Matt 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt. 24:23-25 At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Wow, a religious discussion.

Some quick notes:

Did you hear about the cult members in Indonesia that beat and killed the leaders on 9-9-99 because the end of the world didn't come as it was supposed to? Ho-ho! That was funny. (uh, if you want, I can get the url to the news report)

The corrupt monks/translation thing. I think people are referring to the middle ages, when mostly only monks could read Latin and translate into native languages. In order to convert the pagan Irish, for example, they incorporated some of the Irish pagan ceremony and lore into the bible stories. I don't believe there are any originals of the original New Testament. The Old Testament is based upon the Torah and various other preserved Hebrew documents, so you can trust the it is mostly accurate to it's original form.

The year 2000 is a arbitrary date. And remember, the calendar has been changed a couple of times since it was begun, adding days here and there, and then the leap year thing.

Scientifically, you can say that there has been more severe weather lately, with exagerated el nino and la nina effects, as well as a moving of the tropical zones more north/south, shifting growing regions and effecting overall global wind patterns. As for earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and other earth-based occurances, they still happen with the same relative frequency, when taken over an average timeperiod of, say, 100 years.

It would be unsound to base observations upon a limited 10 year cycle, based upon either your belief that the earth is billions of years old or if you believe it's only 7 thousand years old. A 10 year cycle is just too small a sampling simply because the law of averages and the fact that all natural (and the majority of unnatural) occurances happen in cycles. For the first belief (billions), a thousand year cycle would probably be more accurate.

As for the crazies killing people around the US; well, that's what happens when you allow some people to breed. (Actually, I could probably blame it on the social implications of increased population without the traditional cultural ties that unite and comfort a group of people, or even the increase clashing of disparate cultural groups, regardless of racial or social types, but more of the behavioral types of social groups.)

I find the Old Testament to be a very good book. You don't find metaphor and parables like that anymore. If you really wanted to, I could get into a book-by-book comparison between science and the bible, starting with how genesis actually supports Darwinism.

All the bible foretells is that man is inherently imperfect, just like the rest of nature, and will find some way to fuck up again. Whoops! Big surprise there.

Uh, oh yeah.. Y2K will be a non-event. Yeah, maybe some emerging countries in Africa and eastern Europe won't be up to speed because they are strapped for cash, but lights are not based on a date. Elevators aren't based on a date. I can see so Brady bonds getting their interested miscalculated, but the markets will absorbe it all and plug along the same way they have been. Nukes won't explode, power utilities won't go down, riots will not occur (unless, of course, they manage to convict OJ in a retrial, the guilty bastard).

Oh yeah, the big bad church: Inquisition. Crusades. Robbing of the Canadian government. The competition to get more followers than Islam through any means necessary. The subjugation of women. The inequity to homosexuals. The hundreds of pediophiles masquerading as priests and bishops. Hey, I'm not saying it's all bad, but the Church is pretty fucked up.

Any organization that believes it is the center of the universe has problems. I mean, how can people be so ego-centric to believe that we are the only life in the universe?

People won't yank their money out of the bank for one reason: they are lazy and stupid. Ok, so that's two reasons. They are too lazy to pull out their money, and they are too stupid to know what to do with it if they did take it all out. Half of the people would probably request a certified check. (smirk)

A.D. atands for "Anno Domini," if we are refering to the calender now in use by the US Government and known (somewhat erringly due to the changes since its inception) as 'Gregorian.'

(because I'm taking so long to write this, I looked to see if anything new went up, so a couple more notes:)

The Spanish Inquisition was not about burning witches. It was about the forced exodus and/or torture of Jews and Muslims and other non-Catholics faiths to create a pure Catholic State. They actually converted Temples into Churches.

The return of Christ is just a re-use of the Jewish belief of the Messiah that gives people hope and keeps them coming back to the religion. A rather good ruse, too, if you ask me.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

isnt this fun!! look what you've started pamie! i find it disturbing just how strongly some people react against religion... esp christianity... its amazing how easy it is to focus on all the bad things that have happened throughout the history of the church.... it has to do with the fact that it is run by humans... who are all flawed... we cant do anything right... but that doesnt really have anything to do with the truths that the new testament teaches, or the truths of jesus... what good does it do to reject someones teaching based on how the students live? have you ever read the new testament? the teachings of christ? its pretty much impossible to live up to them... love your enemies... do good to those that hate you... turn the other cheek... not easy... thats why hippocrossy is rampant in the church.... but that doesnt take away from the truth of what is taught... it is a good thing to love your enmies.. it is a good thing to forgive...it is good to turn the other cheek.. it is good to help those in need.... just because the majority of the churches in christianity are missing the point doesnt make the teachings any less 'good'... chrstianity isnt really about churches.. its about individuals living their lives in obedience to christs teachings.... sometimes we screw up... sometimes we miss the point...thats because we are messed up human beings... the bible talks a lot about just how messed up we are... why not ignore the "fucked up" church, and read the book for yourself.... with an open mind... its a whole different book...

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

>> First I want to establish if we are going to talk about the >> historical Jesus then I will be using the Bible as my source as >> this is the only accurate source I know of pertaining to the person >> of Jesus and his teachings. If you have another source, let me >> know.

Before you go any further, let me point out that I was asking rhetorical questions. I do not believe that Jesus will return in the fashion so eloquently described in scripture, so there's no sense is trying to convince me with chapter and verse.

If you want some cold, hard questions about taking scripture literally, then perhaps you could take the time to answer the questions at http://www.cygnus-study.com/pagehiero.shtml

>> What is your source for this belief Ron?

It's not a belief; it's just my own little theory. Hence the use of the word 'personally.'

Look, if you're comfortable in your belief system, then more power to you. I'm comfortable with mine, which happens to not hold the bible as cast-in-stone truth. To each their own to discover their own path, right?

1.Cor.7.17: However may be, each one must order his life according the gift the Lord has granted him and his condition when God called him.

Cheerio, and I'll see you on the other side (of 2000.) :-)

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Well Mike, you know what they say, "When you assume...

--Todd's Assumed Fact:

That the New Testament is the literal word of God, and any questioning of that is wrong.--

Not correct Mike. 35% accurate. I do believe that the New Testament and Old Testament (The Bible) is the literal word of God. Any questioning of it is welcomed. Any assualt on it I simply request you provide data to back it up. If I said for example that Einstein was an idiot. In order to be credible, I would need to justify why I think so.

--Todd's Assumed Fact:

Jesus Works.--

Well, let me expound. Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is the saviour, and yes, Jesus does indeed work.

--Mike's Interpretation Of Todd's Assumed Fact:

Placed in the hands of Man, the New Testament does more harm than good. Christ's core message is that, to love others, our enemies, and ourselves, equally, is the best way to live, because God is really a nice guy, and will reward you after you die. (Does the phrase Turning the other cheek stick out in anyone else's mind?) The problem with that message is that it has been too easily interpreted as a license to do evil.

Does anyone doubt that men don't love the wives they beat? Does anyone doubt that the Spanish Inquisition didn't love the witches they burned? Does anyone doubt that Bill Clinton felt our pain while cheating on his wife? Hey, these guys are all going to Heaven, aren't they?

I've even heard that Josef Mengele would play with Jewish children before he sent them to the gas chamber. These are people who's love nobody needs.

Christ needed to clarify that if you really love someone, do them a favor, and try not to love them to death.

Actual Fact:

If there's a Hell, love, and being a Christian, carries very little influence on who burns and who doesn't. Todd, I'd start sleeping in asbestos underwear if I were you, just in case.--

What is this actual fact based upon Mike? It is obvious that you have not studied the bible (the word of God as I like to call it) thouroughly. As not going to hell has NOTHING to do with "Christ's core message is that, to love others, our enemies, and ourselves, equally, is the best way to live, because God is really a nice guy, and will reward you after you die." also, this was NOT Jesus' core message.

The only commandment Jesus gave us was this. "Love one another as I have loved you." If the people you mentioned above who performed the atrocities followed the commandement of Christ, and were truly christians themselves, then the atrocities they inflicted on others would not have happened.

Just because I read a Spiderman comic, don't make me Spiderman.

Won't be needin' the asbestos undies I have the best fire insurance their is. A relationship with the God, and His Son Jesus Christ.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Geeze, I hate it when people ignore what I say and just latch onto on little thing.

Dennis, I don't think I was reacting against religion. Actually, most of my comments about religion were directed at the church. And I don't think it would be impossible to live by the rules of the bible, as it were. And priests have no excuse not to be able to be pious, anyway.

'Teachings' as you describe necessarily have a teacher that interprets for you.

As for ignoring the church, I usually do that. Being brought up in a good Roman Catholic family, I have read the book. Many times. Even after I figured out what a badly run corporation it is. (Actually, it's very well run, politically.. it's just the social moars I don't go with).

But to read the bible, and to follow it's message, then you must interpret it for yourself, or do you take it literally? For example, you say it's about living in the way of Christ's teachings. I say that Christ didn't teach anything, he just followed the teachings of the profits before him. He didn't really do anything original in the way of teaching. He just died up there on the cross to force open the gates of heaven so that all the deserving souls could once again join the lord.

Interesting note (if I am getting my religion information straight and correct - someone correct me. please): There is no hell in Judism (the Torah). The Arc (sp-whatever) Angel and the angels that rebelled against god is purely a Christian thing. Talk about retribution. Wow.

But the most interesting thing about this whole deal is this:

Men wrote all of these books, regardless if they were from the word of the lord or not. In as much, man must interpret to understand. Therefore, what is written is simply the interpretation of the men who supposively received the word of god.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Dear all,

I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for all of your letters. I find it intersting that so many want to argue with ME. Why not anyone else? If you read the first letter I wrote in this forum, it was in response to a question that Pamie posted.

I wrote my opinion.

All of a sudden I am having a debate with everyone. Here's the part I don't get...

Why is my opinion any less valid than those of you who do not believe what I believe? Is it because it's the bible?

Let me first say that I have not always been a Christian. As a matter of fact, I have said just about everything I have seen here to other Christians and worse, before I studied the word of God.

I never once said any of you were wrong (until you misquoted me), I didn't tell anyone they were going to hell. I never said that in the year 2000 Jesus was coming back, Armageddon would occur or the world would end. I never said any of you were paranoid or stupid. All I asked was if you attack my belief system with allegations, offer some proof, or some evidence, something factual. People have a hard time doing this obviously.

I will ask you all the same thing that I asked Andy. I'll even quote myself just for Andy.:)

"What makes you take the positions you take on issues Andy? Isn't it what YOU believe to be true? Isn't it some science book that you read? Or some discovery channel special? Isn't that the whole reason that you disagree with me? You are stating what YOU believe to be fact, as am I. All I am saying is, if you're going to attack what I believe to be true, then show me facts that prove what you say. Let your belief stand on it's own merit."

In the end it all comes down to the truth, and I have found what I sincerely believe is THE truth.

I will not be posting in this forum again(I can hear actual cheering somewhere.:)). It's been fun, but I don't want to sit and argue with anyone. That's not why I posted my first message here, and I feel it's a waste of time.

I respect all of you, and have no ill feelings toward any of you.

I hope you feel the same.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Rich.. i agree with interpreting the bible for yourself.. i do that.. i dont always agree with everything that my pastor teaches in church... but i do believe that a lot of the problems with the church today stems from its inconsistencies in teaching... that has to do with personal interpretation of the bible..... i think personal interpretation is fine... but why ignore what scholars have learned? or believers before? you wouldnt try to study and learn a subject on your own without having someone teach you about that subject... (at least it can be a lot easier with a teacher) as far as you saying that jesus didnt teach anything new.. i think i would have to disagree with that... if you read the new testament (which you obviously have) you'd have to agree that christ's teachings about the law conflicted a fair bit with the beliefs of his own religion (judaism)..and they were definetly looked at as. the old testament does teach about the fall of satan and the angels in isaiah..(at least that is how the passage is generally interpreted by most biblical scholars). and i think you are right about hell and judaism.. they didnt call it hell.. i think its sheol? and it means 'the grave'... judaism doesnt talk much about heaven or an afterlife at all... interesting discussion... i'm enjoying this too much... i bet pamie wasnt expecting a theological debate....

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

La, la, la, la, la.

Atheism: it's the best thing since apathy.

La, la, la, la, la.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Ok, the no hell thing must be Islam, then.

Personally, I like Zen and Buddhist teachings. It's less 'rule based' as opposed to experience-based.

As for having a teacher, that's all well and good. But you have to make the hard decisions for yourself. After to feel you ahve a good understanding, you need to sit back and take stock of that understanding. Then you need to explore the alterantives and unsertand your decisions.

then, it's a good time to go to a teacher again and challenge and learn more.

But it all comes back to you and your decision. Teachers should guide to your own path of knowledge, not give you their set verbatum, or expect you to accept all that they accept.

The true path to knowledge is the knowledge of yourself. that is not mean to be ego-centric. But you need to know yourself (to some degree) before you can know anything else. Defining youself on the basis of something else only blurs your vision.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

I must admit, I do find it interesting when people who call themselves open-minded adn expect their beliefs to be respected will sit there and attack someone for theirs. Here's a personal example that I myself have been guilty of: I happen to be very pro-choice. I know I am not going to change a pro-lifer's mind any more than they are going to change mine, so the debates that I get into with them are pointless. Yet, I do expect them to respect that I happen to be pro-choice and sometimes when I find out that someone is pro-life, I will think, Wow this person has no clue, blah blah blah. Why can't I just respect that they have different opinioons than I do? I have gotten a lot better about this lately. And I am not saying I completely agree with Todd, though I do believe in God and go to church, but he has a right to express his opinion and not be attacked for it. I also think that he stated his case very well, as did some of the rest of you. That's it really, I just thought that someone should point out that no, Todd never really did attack any of your beliefs, he just stated his own and backed them up with his evidence. That's all...

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

There's only thing that bothers me Todd about your argument. In your letter to Andy, you say "Let your belief stand on it's own merit." Yet earlier, you asked me "What is your source for this belief Ron?" when I theorized about Jesus as Ghandhi et al.

If you look closely at my posts, not once did I attack your belief system. Yet when I give my opinion on the subject you ask me what my source is, as if I need to produce a bibliography. I'll be honest; I'm not a biblical scholar. Isn't there a quote that is along the lines of Judge Not Others, Lest Ye Be Judged Yourself?

Not once have I judged you; correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you judging me with your question?

Believe in your truth, but don't be so blinded by it that you immediately dismiss other peoples truths.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Todd wrote:

I do believe that the New Testament and Old Testament (The Bible) is the literal word of God. Any questioning of it is welcomed. Any assualt on it I simply request you provide data to back it up.

You want data? I got a Bible. What's this I read? PUBLISHED BY DOUBLEDAY? Sorry, Todd. Doesn't look like this is the Word Of God.

Todd wrote:

Actual Fact:

If there's a Hell, love, and being a Christian, carries very little influence on who burns and who doesn't. Todd, I'd start sleeping in asbestos underwear if I were you, just in case.--

What is this actual fact based upon Mike? It is obvious that you have not studied the bible (the word of God as I like to call it) thouroughly.

That's because, as far as I know, nothing is studied thouroughly. (Ack, what a cheap shot. Oh, well, serves you right for the Assume crack. I promise to stop the cheap shots if you do.)

As for my badly worded fact, it doesn't change the truth: The Words Of Jesus Inspires Evil. Let me refer to Denis's argument against this--

Dennis wrote:

what good does it do to reject someones teaching based on how the students live? have you ever read the new testament? the teachings of christ? its pretty much impossible to live up to them... love your enemies... do good to those that hate you... turn the other cheek... not easy... thats why hippocrossy is rampant in the church.... but that doesnt take away from the truth of what is taught... it is a good thing to love your enmies.. it is a good thing to forgive...it is good to turn the other cheek.. it is good to help those in need.... just because the majority of the churches in christianity are missing the point doesnt make the teachings any less 'good'

Dennis supports your ideas, and he acknowledges the results of which I have given examples. But for some reason, you and Dennis don't think the historic execution of these ideas "take away from the truth of what is taught." I'm sorry, but that is card-carrying hogwash. What can you judge an idea on if not on its results?

Todd wrote:

As not going to hell has NOTHING to do with "Christ's core message is that, to love others, our enemies, and ourselves, equally, is the best way to live, because God is really a nice guy, and will reward you after you die." also, this was NOT Jesus' core message.

The only commandment Jesus gave us was this. "Love one another as I have loved you." If the people you mentioned above who performed the atrocities followed the commandement of Christ, and were truly christians themselves, then the atrocities they inflicted on others would not have happened.

Hogwash. If you really believed that was his only commandment, you need to stop calling other people on their lack of "facts," and cut and giving so much authority on Bible quotes.

One commandment. One nice realistic goal. I like that. If only it were true. Todd wrote:

Just because I read a Spiderman comic, don't make me Spiderman.

???

I don't know to what you are refering. You need to put the Spider-Man analogies down before you hurt yourself.

Todd wrote:

Won't be needin' the asbestos undies I have the best fire insurance their is. A relationship with the God, and His Son Jesus Christ.

Todd, I would leaf through your copy of Inferno again if I were you. There's a special place in Hell for Fortune Tellers.

Todd wrote:

Why is my opinion any less valid than those of you who do not believe what I believe? Is it because it's the bible?

You invalidated your own opinion. You're the one who acknowledges only the Bible. Therefore we cannot attack you.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Beth.. atheism is just the lazy mans religion... :) rich.. totally agree on teachers challenging you to learn more... i would never suggest that someone has to believe what i believe to be true just because i believe it to be true (?)... dito for anyone teaching me... i need to take that teaching and digest it for myself.... and come up with my own understanding of it... if someone doesnt believe that christianinty is true, then it is not up to me to force my belief on them.. i would rather have an open discussion about it.... i want people to understand what christianity is about... if they dont agree with it or accept it, thats fine with me.. as long as they are willing to talk about it, and what they think of it, and why they think it, then thats great! as a christian myself it helps me to better understand christianity if i can see what people think of it... if they point out the flaws they see, then i can search for the answers myself.. and i dont always find them... but it doesnt destroy my faith.. i struggle with a lot of things in my faith... but i think that the struggle to understand Jesus/God/grace/life is part of being a christian..... another thing.. i dont think that christianity is rule based... churches are rule based... christianity is grace based...

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

"Dennis supports your ideas, and he acknowledges the results of which I have given examples. But for some reason, you and Dennis don't think the historic execution of these ideas "take away from the truth of what is taught." I'm sorry, but that is card-carrying hogwash. What can you judge an idea on if not on its results?"

this makes no sense... the bible teaches that murder is wrong... people murder... MURDER IS STILL WRONG... the bible teaches that you should love your neighbor... people hate.. HATRED IS STILL WRONG... the bible teaches that you should do good to others... people do bad things to people... DOING BAD THINGS TO PEOPLE IS STILL WRONG...

the TRUTH of the teachings is still intact even if messed up human beings/churches/governments/whatever dont follow them....

"What can you judge an idea on if not on its results?".. judge it by the results.. dont murder=good results... love your neighbor=good results.. do good for others=good results... following the teaching=good results... not following=bad results... this aint hogwash....

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Hahahahaha...please continue! I haven't enjoyed myself this much since that Jonestown shindig.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

the TRUTH of the teachings is still intact even if messed up human beings/churches/governments/whatever dont follow them....

Dennis, you still keep making my point for me. If human beings keep messing it up, then the truth is just good intentions paving the way to Hell.

"What can you judge an idea on if not on its results?".. judge it by the results.. dont murder=good results... love your neighbor=good results.. do good for others=good results... following the teaching=good results... not following=bad results... this aint hogwash....

Dennis, I can only refer to what you wrote in your previous post--

have you ever read the new testament? the teachings of christ? its pretty much impossible to live up to them... love your enemies... do good to those that hate you... turn the other cheek... not easy... thats why hippocrossy is rampant in the church...

Dennis, all I mean to say is that good behavior = good behavior, not good behavior = good results. I thought this was covered adequately in the Book of Job, as Job was pretty much singled out for torture because he was so good. Most Christians talk good behavior = good behavior, but they walk good behavior = good results, and Christ's words set up the good behavior = good results interpretation. If Todd had started spouting Lao Tzu, I could have hammered the Taoists almost as easily. (Sneaky Bastards!)

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Dennis: Christianity is just the stupid man's religion. :)

The smiley didn't make it any nicer, did it? I won't insult your belief system if you don't insult mine.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

[>:(

Christianity: it's better than fire!

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Wow. This forum sure grew a lot since last time I saw it.
Todd, I would like to tell you that I admire your courage in posting what you believe. I don't have that courage most of the time, because I know that I will be under attack for it shortly.
The thing that I find so strange is, I am a Christian, but I do not hate or attack anyone for their beliefs. This, by the way, is not referring to this conversation in the forum, but other experiences I have had. If I were in a Christian chat room, and a self-proclaimed witch came in, what would she do? Begin denouncing us. What would we do? Return her hatred with a simple explanation of why we believe what we do. Turn this around and make me a Christian coming into a Wiccan chat room, just to talk, and they would still denounce me and try to get me to leave.
I have found this true in real life also. If the conversation at work should turn to God, some will say they don't believe in Him, others say they are Baptist, Catholic, whatever. I say I am a Christian and they roll their eyes, walk away and never treat me the same.
BUT...when their child is in the ICU, they ask ME to pray for the child. AND...when their husband leaves them and they are discouraged, they ask ME what they should do with their lives now.
I am only 21 years old. I am not wise or smart. That is not why they ask me. I have asked them why. They say they can tell I am different. They say they can see a light in my eyes. I am more alive than they are. I am happier. I have a reason to live.
I do not believe in God just because of the Bible, or just because someone has told me He is real, although both those reasons are valid. I believe in Him because I feel and hear Him. There is a verse in the Bible that says, "I have been young, and now I am old. But never have I seen the righteous forsaken, nor their children begging bread."
God has always taken care of me. I have simply asked my Father whenever I needed anything and He has provided.
He is the only reason I am alive. When I was 1 and a half, I had a severe epilectic seizure. The doctors said the damage was so bad, I would probably die that day and if I did happen to live, I would be a vegetable and should be put in a home. They said it would be a mercy if I died, for all the pain I and my parents would suffer if I lived.
My parents and their pastor prayed for me, and God healed me. I started reading when I was 4 years old. I have never had any health problems since then. I am getting married in 6 weeks to the man God kept for me for 21 years. I am not bragging about myself, but about my Father.
I have spent a lot of time in this forum, and I love all of you people. I wish you knew what I know about how much God loves you. If there is anything I wish for my life, it is that people could look at me and see God's love through me. If anyone is curious about anything I said, please feel free to email me with any questions you have.
I hope I didn't end up preaching here. I started out just wanting to thank Todd for inspiring me with his courage.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

If there is one thing I've noticed is that devout Bible thumpers usually post long messages about how they have seen the glory and how they wish and pray that you could, too.

The other thing I've noticed is that people who disagree are short in their answers, or they make no sense whatsoever.

All three aspects tend to annoy me.

Mainly, it shows a lack of thought in the first place by all parties.

How many of you have sat back and really thought this stuff out? I don't mean, like, 'Geeze, I hated going to CCD' or 'I got through an impossible operation. It was God's will.'?

Mike wasn't making a bit of sense until he brought up the book of Job (which, by the way is an excellent Robert Heinlein novel, if you get the chance). I just wish he wouldn't use all the damn HTML tags. It messes with my e-mail.

As for the Wiccan comment.. uh do you even know what the religion is about? I'd give a good probability your 'self proclaimed witch' didn't, either, but, uh...whatever.

As for surviving against all odds.. well, sure it could be the hand of god.. it could just be a statistic. But, hey, if you find peace in that, good for you. I'm just wondering if you ever really explored what you have been taught.

Ky's got the right idea.. no one's belief system is going to change here. what we have here is a Mexican standoff. Well, if we all had guns, it would be.

And actually, Ron had a good point up there with the Ghandi thing.

As for the word of Jesus inspiring evil.. Good and Evil are a religious concept. Morality is a human concept. Right and wrong are a societal concept. What is right may not be moral or good. What is wrong may not be immoral or evil. and so on (what is right my not be moral, but may be good, etc..)

Therefore, Jesus's word could never actually inspire evil, as he was on the good side of religion.

But inspiration is also such a odd thing. Good, moral, and right things may actually inspire wrong, immoral, and evil things. Utopia, for example can inspire such things as 1984 (It's a George Orwell novel you should have all read). Machiavelli himself was pretty messed up, but he had some good ideals.

Ah, now you're shaking your head going 'what?'

It's all subjective, people. Because nothing is written in black or white. It's all left to the human mind to interpert and to formulate individually.

Tell me, can your beliefs and ideals hold up under your own scrutiny? If so, ok, then.. if you give it an honest shot. Otherwise, you're just fooling yourself.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Uh, by the way, I was raised Roman Catholic. Just for the record.

-rich http://www.inferiority.com

-- Anonymous, September 17, 1999

Glitterbeam,

Congratulations on your success and happiness.

As for any display of hatred--

• I really don't see any real hatred on either side. Someone is just going to have to point it out to me. Perhaps Andy got a little scatological, but scatology has a fashion that hatred does not. If you can't picture this, consider the influence of James Joyce.
• Even the Pro-Christian postings acknowledge corruption in the church. If my analogy of the church as a child robbing a candy store, with a weapon in one hand, and the store insurance policy in the other, still applies, I don't call objecting to raising my hands as hatred.
• Baptists and Catholics are Christians. Are the Baptists any less brave than Todd for sticking up for their branch? The Catholics? Or is their bravery also hatred?

Any hatred on any of our part would mean that any suffering on yours, or Todd's, part would cause someone's pleasure. I don't doubt that we've all received enough hatred to get defensive, perhaps the haters even more than merely the hated. After all, they only long to see others give up their dignity because they abandoned theirs, and that's why despair is so shameful and hurtful. But I didn't see any real sign of it in any of the postings. More defensiveness than despair and hatred.

But for those of us who find the secrets of happiness, I have no doubt that they will be posted here, and the rest of us will use what we can, and disregard what we can't.

The gargoyles of many temples and churches represent the dangerous facade of spiritual metamorphosis, as the devotee must undergo self-anihilation before rebirth can be experienced. But a representation is not a promise that those who dwell within have restrained their personal agendas. Don't confuse the stone gargoyles for the real Wild Things, who are merely what the new wisdom looks like before it becomes familiar.

Rich wrote:

As for the word of Jesus inspiring evil.. Good and Evil are a religious concept. Morality is a human concept. Right and wrong are a societal concept. What is right may not be moral or good. What is wrong may not be immoral or evil. and so on (what is right my not be moral, but may be good, etc..)

Therefore, Jesus's word could never actually inspire evil, as he was on the good side of religion.

Rich, I was trying to paraphrase the the conflict of the Fisher King in the quest for the Grail. When he becomes lustful for the glory of the grail, he loses it becomes immasculated, bringing darkness to his land, and all that rot. The paradox of the quest is that you can't find the grail by looking for it. It's like trying to make someone love you by pointing a gun to their head (or threat of Hell). I merely wished to described the conflict without using the symbolic archtypes.

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

...And Rich, I never said that the Spanish Inquisition was about burning witches. Yet they were burned, and it was their religious belief that gave their state of mind the license to do such.

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

...As for my lack of thought, I'm sorry you find it so annoying. I'll try and think more in the future.

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

Rich:
If you have noticed that so many "Bible thumpers" are wishing and praying for you to see the "glory" as you called it, why does it annoy you when they are only wanting the best for you? I know that is what I meant. When so many people are crazy out there, hurting each other, I would think that you'd be glad.
I don't know if you were referring to me when you said 'I got through an impossible operation. It was God's will.', but if you were, I think I forgot to mention that I didn't HAVE an operation. It was a case of the doctor examining me, my parents praying, the doctor examining me again and all was well. Think what you will about that, but I know that God spared me because He has a plan for my life.
I do know what the Wiccan religion is about. Besides having studied it a little on my own, my mom was a Wiccan and has told me about it. I do not claim to know everything about it, though. I used it as an example for what I was saying about people attacking me about my beliefs.
I have examined what I have been taught. I was raised a Christian since birth, but I was not really saved until about 5 years ago, and not dedicated or serious until last year. I even graduated from Bible school not really knowing God. What I believe now, I believe on my own.
Mike: Please read my original post again. I wasn't talking about hatred on this board, but another experience I had before at work. I didn't even mean to say anything at all besides the beginning to Todd, but I just kept writing, so that whole part about hatred was speaking to Todd. I wanted to see if he gets the same thing when he mentions his faith.
I consider anyone who sticks up for his faith when under fire very brave, Catholics, Baptists, Wiccans, Methodists, United Pentecostals...whatever they may be. I only mentioned them because when I say I am a Christian, it seems to strike a deeper chord than whatever others say they are. Again, wanting to know if Todd experiences that.

Well, I started this message about an hour ago and didn't post cause my fiance called. Now it is 1 AM and I don't want to be accused of not putting any thought into this, which I am not able to do at this level of exhaustion. :) So I will end here. Goodnight all.

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

Oh, wait, you wrote this:

This [hate], by the way, is not referring to this conversation in the forum, but other experiences I have had.

That's kind of a crucial line in your paragraph. I'd feel more foolish, if I hadn't already apologized in the forum a dozen times before. Sorry.

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

Okay, I'm not really responding to ANYTHING in this whole forum, as I have been enjoying the banter, but choose not to join the debate, but something *did* catch my eye, and I have to ask about it.

The phrase: "I have been saved."

Why must one be saved? If someone has lived a good life, been dedicated to their faith (whatever it may be), and basically has done no evil (I know - it's "impossible" for anyone to not commit SOME act of evil) then why should they need to be "saved".

Or the ever popular: "Have you found Jesus?"

Why would you assume that one had LOST him in the first place?

I think it's that smug arrogance that someone else mentioned that ruffles my feathers. I try to respect everyone else's beliefs as I would like to have mine respected, but when you come off touting: "I have been saved! Have YOU?!" It *is* off-putting. No one's experience is exactly the same, and I think that's something that may be being missed here.

A coupla folks have mentioned respecting each other's beliefs, but there is still a mild level of animosity that seems to be making it difficult for that reality to emerge.

Just my 2:00am $0.02. Sorry if it wasn't thoughtful enough for you. *Smirk*

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

La, la, la, la, la. Atheism: it's the best thing since apathy.

La, la, la, la, la.

i think you insulted your own belief system.... then i made a joke.... and you didnt laugh... forgive me... the stupid man... :) :) :)

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

"Dennis, you still keep making my point for me. If human beings keep messing it up, then the truth is just good intentions paving the way to Hell."

living the "truth" of the things mentioned would not be good intentions.. not living them even though you think they are good ideas, thats good intentions....

"good behavior" does equal "good results".... the example of job doesnt work... i'm speaking in terms of good results here on earth, within society... jobs "good behavior" did equal "good results" for his family and his friends and society in general... his "good behavior" did not equal "good results" for him.... the same could be said of mother theresa... her "good behavior" = "good results" for those that she helped, not necessarily for her... the point of the good behavior is not personal gratification.... the point is a better society in general.... the bible talks a lot about this... most people think the point of being a good person is to 'please God'.... in the old testament the prophets talk about this... the people missed the point.... they followed the law to the letter... but their hearts were still far from God... they tried to please him by following the letter of the law... but they missed the heart of it... he wanted them to have pure hearts and he wanted them to take care of the poor and the sick... but they missed the point...they were too busy making sure the curtains in the temple were just right... new testament too... the whole idea of getting to heaven by good works... doesnt cut it... but that doesnt make good works bad... God still wants his people to love others, take care of the sick.. etc...why? because they are good things... they strengthen society... they bear good results... even if you dont believe in christ or the bible, living a good life, helping others, loving your neighbor.. these are all good things... and they are hard to do.. but if people do live there lives loving others and helping others, then "good results" do come of it.. not just good behavior....

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

Job's family was allowed to be killed so God could prove to Satan Job's faith. There's no dancing around the fact that Job was punished for being a good person.

...Scotty ...I need ...more power!

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

I have thought about Job as being allowed to be broken. Everything he had was taken away, so God would truly be all he had. When this happens to someone, God means more than before. You love Him more because He has been all you had for a time. Anyway, that is how I have always read the book of Job.

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

job was punished to prove his faith in god... and he proved it... that doesnt take away from the fact that good results came from his good behavior... if you want to argue that bad things happen to good people, therefore we shouldnt bother to do anything good, thats just stupid.. and its also a different argument... what we were discussing was whether good behavior=good results... not bad things happen to good people...

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

My understanding of Job is--

• Satan bets God that he can break Job's devotion to Him, and God permits Satan to take away all Job's wealth, the lives of Job's family, and Job's health, short of his life.
• Job entertains the notion of confronting God for punishing a good man, himself, which he argues with three sages for a very, very long and boring debate (sort of like this forum, no offense intended).
• God speaks to Job, and tells him how exdraordinarily powerful He is for creating Life, the Universe, and Everything, demonstrating how unbelievably pitiful, weak, and insignificant Job is.
• Job bows before God, which is significant, considering that, in the Old Testiment, Eternal Damnation is not a consideration for Job. He is not motivated by any personal gain to bow before God.
• God tells the 3 sages they were wrong in their dispute with Job, and that they had misrepresented God.

The only reward for being a good person is that you are a good person. Job is a good person because that is his preference. This is the grace that Dennis claims to stand by.

God, by contrast, cannot carry grace, because He is omnipresent and all-powerful. God makes no sacrifices.

The most ubiquitous modern analogy I can think of is the Superman/Clark Kent relationship. Superman doesn't fly around rescuing people for money or for a crown or for Lois Lane's affection (at least not until recently). When he comes back to earth, he assumes the form of Clark Kent. The only reward for being Superman is being Superman. So when you hear someone ask, "Why doesn't he just take those stupid glasses off and be Superman 24 hours a day?" that's because the point of Job is lost most people. Good behavior = good behavior, not good behavior = good results.

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

I don't think that it's insignificant that Superman was created by 2 Jewish teenagers from Cleveland.

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

"The only reward for being a good person is that you are a good person. Job is a good person because that is his preference. This is the grace that Dennis claims to stand by."

you are still completely missing my point... i was not talking about "rewards" of any kind.... what i was saying is if i do good, then good things come of that.... if i give all my money to help the poor, and the poor are given help, THEN THAT IS A GOOD RESULT OF MY "GOOD BEHAVIOR"... can you not agree with that? if i decide to forgive someone, rather than seek revenge, maybe mend a friendship, then that is a good result of my "good behavior"... i am not talking about personal rewards for doing good.. i am talking about the results of doing the good thing.... the result of the action of doing good is good.... get it???? why do you have to be rewarded for doing good??

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

Dennis, you're the one insisting good behavior = good results, not me. When you are saying that you weren't talking about rewards of any kind, well, that's what you've been insisting all along. All you talk about is rewards. Look at what you wrote:

"What can you judge an idea on if not on its results?".. judge it by the results.. dont murder=good results... love your neighbor=good results.. do good for others=good results... following the teaching=good results... not following=bad results... this aint hogwash....

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

again i say... i am not talking about rewards... what makes you think i mean rewards when i say good results? doing good brings good results.. thats not a reward for doing good, its a consequence of doing good.. in fact some people do good and get nothing out of it.. but good results still come... i dont understand what you mean by rewards.. the post you quoted from me doesnt mention rewards at all... please explain what you mean...

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999

A reward is a result. A good result is a reward. Nice try.

Dennis, you've just made me think of this really, really smart news special about what constitutes good by John Stossel they aired on ABC a few years ago. In the special, he charted causes of premature death, and ranked them by the average amount of time they took from life expectancy. Deaths from flying accidents took an average of a day, car accidents took off half a year, and smoking took off an average of 5 years.

Anyway, he observed that the activities that took more and more time from the life expectency average, like smoking, drinking, various diseases, became more prevalent the less money the subjects made. The less money you made, the shorter you are likely to live.

Then he posed the question, "who is more good, Mother Theresa or Michael Milken, the convicted Junk Bond King?" Everyone he asked said Theresa, but the numbers indicated that the jobs Milken created (CNN is an example of a money he had raised money to start) created more wealth, thereby extending the lifespan of those finding jobs, thereby creating more good.

This is why the anti-abortion protesters have no spines. They claim to be preserving life, but if they were really interested in preserving life, they would be bombing 7-11s. As Confucius said, "The goody-goodies are the thieves of virtue."

-- Anonymous, September 18, 1999