There are some things that men don't like to do that secretly women find very, very sexy and manly. Share them here to make men feel better about themselves, won't you?

I'll go first:

A man who feels okay about ordering the same dish as you.

When he wakes up in the middle of the night and puts the covers back on you that you've kicked off.

A man who knows when he's had too much to drink and he needs you to drive home.

All very manly.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

Answers

Wait, farting, belching, and crotch scratching aren't in that list? Damn, well that explains a lot...

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

1. Doing dishes. I'm not sure whether this is more manly or more sexy, but it is definitely irresistible. Doing dishes half-dressed is also good. Doing dishes naked would probably be too distracting.

2. Making tea. Especially when we've been arguing and I'm upset at you and I'm trying to decide if I still want to talk to you at all and you figure the best thing to do is make me some tea (you used to ask, but now you know that you don't need to) and bring it to me. Once I thought about not drinking it, but I knew I was just being pouty and sulky. It was good.

3. Falling asleep in front of the tv with your head in my lap. You may be afraid that this is too adorable and cute, but as I'm sure Pamie will agree, it is really very manly.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

Crying....at least I hope so. I'm like a damn leaky faucet sometimes. If I was really smart I'd erase this entry right now, wouldn't I?

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

Crying is certainly manly. Don't you remember the old "Free to Be You and Me" song "It's Alright to Cry"? It shows that you are very comfortable around the person you are crying in front of.

Vacuuming. Very manly. Wielding that machine around like you know what you're doing. Nice. Do it in boxer shorts.

It's also manly to come home to a cooked meal with wine and flowers. rowr.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

Ahhh...manly. Manly is washing the kitchen floor, cleaning the bathroom (including the toliet), doing the laundry, and dusting while your wife is away at a conference because you want to give her a clean house to come home to.

Manly is also holding on to your wife so very tightly because hearing your little cat cry when he gets a shot at the vet is so heartbreaking.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

Watching my manly husband bust his hump making a vegetable garden for his family. Then working hard to make sure the boat goes in the water so we can go to the beach with the dog. I love it when I come home from work and he's cooking dinner, always gets a hug from behind. Watching how manly and happy he is when football season starts. GO GIANTS!

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

hmm... right now, having recently been dumped over the phone, and having only been dumped once in person (and that was because his wee little whore was arriving within half an hour and he had to get rid of me), i must say that if any guy i dated were manly enough to dump me in person, kindly, without any stupidass motive like "she's going to be here soon"... well, god. i would be so screwed.

if i ever got dumped like that, i would be madly in love with whoever did it. just because having the guts to face a girl who is crying because of you is incredible. my gosh. i think i'm pathetic.


-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

I thought I was the only one who likes a man who can vacuum!

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

Whoah, whoah, whoah... so far, all I see is women talking about how manly it is for men to act like women! Did I miss something?
I don't want to get off on a rant here (), but this is like that whole double standard thing about how women say they want a sensitive, nice, nurturing man, but often end up dating the sicko, nasty, "bad boys," out there. (I am, of course, not talking about any of you wonderful ladies here. Ya'll are all right. See, I'm being very sensitive to your needs here -- very manly)...
The point (and I hope there is one here) is that men need to be manly, but often times they don't do it around women because then they just look like louts. REAL manly behaviour involves cussin', fightin', stinkin' and various intricate poker games played with cigars in mouths.
I think what the fabulous ladies are talking about here (and did I mention that you all look GREAT today! no, seriously. you're beautiful, and I'm not just saying that) is chivalry. A man doing things usually not associated with the macho image is certainly noble and chivalrous. But please, ladies, don't take away our manliness, as ugly as it may seem.
And while I'm at it, please, ladies, don't squeeze the Charmin.

thanks, the manly (grrr!) o.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

There is no doubt in my mind that O's "act like women" comment is going to start some flames here.

In any event, I've been around men when they sit around cussing and smoking and drinking and playing poker. I've been around them because I'm doing it too. You don't have to have a dick to act that way.

By "manly" here I mean "what makes you happy to have a man in your house. what does he do that turns you on" and a lot of those things are things that men would never consider to be manly. Men would never think of buying tampons as manly. I happen to think it shows that you are a real man because you don't think of it as a "pussy job." (no pun intended... okay, maybe a little pun.)

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

Now hold on, Omar's right, and not only that, most of the list included CHORES!! Dish washing, vacuuming, fixing the boat, tending the garden...and all in our boxer shorts! Are we just pieces of meat, here to do your work and be your sex slaves!!?? We're human beings damnit! :)

As far as the crying and falling asleep with our heads in your laps, I guess it's manly to be able to do that alone with women, but around other guys.......HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL no!

And Pamie, you're right, you don't need a dick to cuss, and belch, and fart and scratch. But unless you are a guy, you don't fully appreciate the experience. :)

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

..and one more thing! (I'm on a roll now!) I'll go buy tampons when my woman goes and buys some Preparation-H 'Roid Cream!

YEAH, BABY!

TOO MUCH INFO!!

But see? How weird would it feel for you ladies to go buy a cream that tells the world your man's got ass warts (a common guy problem)? Same thing for us guys when we gotta tell the world our girlfriend is having a "heavy" flow.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

All right, I was totally with the Schmeltz Man there until that last bit. I would NEVER ask my lady to pick up 'rhoid cream. Dude, that's just... not... cool.
On the other hand, I have bought pads before and yeah, it was pretty embarassing. But no worse than buying condoms, I think. In fact, in a pinch I once bought some at a gas station (I know, ladies: the height of suave behavior) and the guy at the Texaco was like, "I know SOMEbody that's gonna have fun tonight while I'm stuck here.
He was jovial about it, so I went along with it: "Yeah. twice."
"Ooooh, I'm scared a you!" he said. That was kinda funny.

But anyway, back to the point: As for what Pamie said about hangin' out with the boys... well, so I really have to say it?

She's a man, BABY!!!!

Okay, not really, but point taken. Alternately, it is really sexy sometimes when women do "manly" things: like smoking a cigar, wearing a button-up men's shirt and nothing else (or briefs even), operating heavy machinery, riding a bull. Yeah, I guess the whole gender reversal thing is kinda sexy a little. In fact, I even like that Diet Coke ad where the guy takes off his shirt for those office ladies. That's manly, right? ... wait....
Oh god. I've said too much. NEVER MIND!!! Delete, delete, delete. Pamie, get rid of this message! CRAP!!!

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

Ok, some things you guys may not catch here...we like men to do chores because the majority of you NEVER EVER EVER DO THEM. (That was a big-ass holler, by the way.) We like men who show they care by getting off of their lazy asses and letting us sit for one damn second while THEY clean. What do you think a man would say if a woman said "Oh, Friends is on, you'll have to wait for dinner"? They'd pitch a big ol' fit, but if a woman asks them to take out the trash, it's all about "But the game is on!". Harumph. And no, I DON'T cook for my boyfriend much anymore. He's lost the privledge of eating my yummy food. Now I feed my neighbors.

That said (and no i do NOT hate men), I think a man in a pair of those tight boxershorts is about the sexiest damn thing in the world. He doesn't even have to be a totally buff stud (but that does help), he just has to have on a pair of dark blue or grey or some blindingly white tight boxershorts that make his butt poke out all sexy like. GRRR BABY! MellieBee the perv

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

yeah i think some folks are misisng the point, here. I agree with pamie that what i think is REALLY manly is a man who is not insecure about his masculinity. Like my first-ever serious boyfriend who watched the jim henson tribute the week after he died and got teary over silent Kermit. and about buying tampons, i would think a man would be psyched to buy them. i mean what telegraphs to the world that you have a girlfriend or close female friend better than that? it's not like anyone will think you're getting them for yourself. My current honey loves to walk around in public carrying the shopping bag froM "Contempo Casuals" (a girls-only clothing store i affectionately call "Contrampo") because, as he puts it "everyone will know that I'm dating a hottie"

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

Manly manly manly ... I like it when my boyfriend opens doors, rubs my back each and every night, fetches me glasses of 7up when I'm sick, but that could all probably be filed under 'being nice'. I've had boyfriends who were pretty rude and inconsiderate, this is a nice change. My boyfriend buys tampons for me, that takes balls. As much as he hates doing it, he marches out to H.E.B., searches for that estrogen-charged aisle and finds my 'female stuff'. He never gets it wrong either. He kills bugs for me even though he always complains about it beforehand, "aww poor spider (ant, etc.)". He takes my shoes and socks off of me when I come home and fall asleep in bed fully clothed. When he fixes things, electronics, cars, anything like that, I look at him like he's Bob Vila on steroids; (insert boasting here). I dunno, my boyfriend does a lot of manly stuff but he does a lot of not-so-manly stuff too; he strikes a nice balance I suppose.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

Ok,

I agree that most of things women seem to bring up are chores. And the reasoning was because it's something many men don't do. But having the guy do them isn't manly. It's just getting him to help out when he should already be helping out.

As for buying tampons.. the thing is usually there is some hottie in line with the guy as he buys the tampons.

Manly could better be something like : defending your female companion, and then walking away from a fight.

Stuff like pulling the covers over (which I did the night before pammie posted her question) seems more of a 'how to be a sensitive man' type of thing. Is that what you're looking for? What makes a sensitive man?

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

Not being consumed by gender stereotypes...

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

I'm not consumed by gender stereotypes! I'm obsessed. There's a difference.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

I don't know, ladies, this is a bit confusing... apparently the ultimate in being manly would be going out to buy tampons while wearing nothing but boxer briefs?

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

YES!

(while carrying a tub of Ben and Jerry's Chocolate Fudge Brownie Ice Cream and not eating any because it's a gift for you)

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

But seriously...

Most of the things you've cited are just examples of something that one person might do for another... what's the manly bit?

Washing dishes? I love it when my wife washes dishes and cleans up the kitchen. That is very helpful to me and I really appreciated it and I also understand that sometimes she has a pile of homework or tests to correct and grade, lesson plans to do, etc.

Yeah, I cook. I know how to cook, I'm pretty good at it, and I usually enjoy doing it. I also do the grocery shopping. My wife has to cook and shop when I'm not home... our kids moan when they hear I'm going off on a business trip although they know they can easily persuade Mom to get lots of take-out like pizza. Yeah, we reverse the usual stereotypes. So is it manly to cook and shop? I don't know... what is it when a woman cooks and shops? Womanly? I think it is just taking care of the people you love.

Same for the other household chores... they have to be done... we get them done... and since they have to be done it is pleasanter to think of doing them as doing them out of love...

I'm first up in the morning and before I can even start the coffee I have to feed our cat. I mean he is right there, underfoot, nipping at my ankles to say "Feed me! I am starving! Feed me!" So he has to get fed. Then coffee. Bring my wife a cup and wake her. Eat breakfast, wake up the kids, get them to school (yeah, okay, not right now, but that will start again very soon). But the little tasks, toasting and buttering a bagel, wrapping it in foil and handing it to her as she heads out the door... that helps her get started on her day and is just a simple way of saying each morning "I love you."

Somebody has to do laundry... sometimes that's me but more often it is her. Somebody has to sweep and mop the kitchen. That's usually her. Somebody has to vacuum. That's probably 50-50. Somebody has to dust. That's usually her. She gets home (during the school year) around three in the afternoon; I usually get home sometime between six and seven. That has some influence on who does what. You might guess that we rarely eat dinner before 7:30 and that I depend a lot on advance preparation.

Oh, yeah, I do sometimes buy her pads, but I don't like to do it because every brand seems to come in at least seventeed different varieties and I always worry about buying the one she wants. On the other hand, she isn't comfortable stopping in a supermarket to do anything more than pick up a gallon of milk.

So I guess you can call anything a man does for his family manly as long as you don't mind that anything a woman does for her family is womanly.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

I think sticking up for male-hood in a female-dominated discussion is kinda manly. No? Maybe? Asi-asi?

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

Manly = Cyrano de Bergerac.

Now you see why I don't get a lot of dates.

P.S. I hate gender stereotypes.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

Well, I think the tampon argument was beaten like a dead horse, so I won't go there anymore, except to say whoever said you usually end up in line with a hot chick that day, is right! MORE proof that God's a woman.

Now, crying at silent Kermit, washing dishes, laundry, being all sensitive like....it's sounds to me like you all wanna date Jm J. Bullock. Now c'mon, I know it sure is tempting to take center square for the win, but that is anything but MANLY.

Now, I'm doing a little experiment for a book I'm writing where I have people I know on one big listserv and I get them to talk about relationships and all, and this has come up -- what you want in a man. And some of the foo-foo stuff has come up, but there also was an element of "I want a man who's confident, strong, decisive..." etc. etc.

So, what I'm gathering is, you all want a man who does all the chores in his underwear, while crying because you're sick and he has no 7up or tea to bring you, and just wants to rest his head in your lap....but he also takes charge and is strong and young and dashing and confident (but not cocky), and is your Rock of Gibralter when you're down?

Ayyyyyy..... I'm thinking that this man also probably was sent here on a spaceship from the planet Krypton when he was an infant....

FYI, what men want? A woman who knows to schedule cuddle-time around the TV schedule, knows Sundays are for football, not antique shopping, and has a nice rack. I think that about covers it. :)

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

Who or what is Jm J Bullock?

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

Oh! How could you not remember Jm J Bullock? Someone doesn't watch their 80's game shows OR Too Close for Comfort.

So sad.

In any event this has turned into some sort of "Girls who want girls who are boys who dig girls who dig girls" sort of thing and that's not really what I was going for. I just think that sometimes men don't think that doing something "girly" is manly. Often times we find it very sexy because it says that you are comfortable in your manliness.

We're not looking for houseslaves, we just get turned on when you do something we wouldn't have expected you to do, or that we didn't ask you to do, or something that shows you were thinking of us.

I can't remember who said to always remember the little things she wanted because she'll never forget that you remembered.

There's other things that I find manly that require the right amount of testosterone to do. I think that carrying a woman to bed or across the threshold or from where she fell asleep on the couch to where her side of the bed is is incredibly manly. If she's crying, then you've got double bonus points there, buddy.

A man that can tell what's wrong with your car by the sound-- and then fix it when you didn't even ask him to-- terribly manly.

A man who asks you to dance. Not that you have to ask him. He knows it's your song and he asks you before you even glance in his direction.

A man is manly when he has just shaved, and he hugs you goodbye and you get a smell of his neck and you see just a bit of shaving cream under his ear that he forgot to wash off. Very sexy. Very manly.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

I thought of something else that is manly and sexy. Now, some of you ladies aren't going to agree, cause it's wierd. But if you do, I wanna see it here, ok? Ok.

I love a man who's just got off of work and he's kind of, a tiny bit, stinky and sweaty and a bit dirty. GRRRR-ROWR! Think of it ladies... a tall, dark firefighter, standing in the midst of the smoke and the flame. His face is smudged with a bit of soot, and his brow glistens with the sweat of his exertion. He opens up his big yellow jacket, and you see his muscular chest being caressed lovingly by the trails of moisture running down to his waistband. He lifts his hand and takes off his helmet, which he throws to the floor. His gloves come off, and he rubs his work-roughened hands across his broad chest, leaving more smudges of ash. He swipes his arm across his sweaty forehead, and in his husky, sexy voice, he says...."Honey, do you have a beer, I'm damn hot!". And there fantasy ends and reality begins. Sigh. Still, I love the smell and sight of a freshly exerted man, weather it's playing a little football with the guys or working hard in the garden..mm. But if he's been stinky for more than about 30 minutes, forget the sexy and head straight for the shower.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

My boyfriend does karate, indoor soccer (manly goalie) and plays softball. And he looks real sexy doing all of the above. But what makes him manly is when he bakes a cake from scratch for my daughters birthday. Or makes me cookies. Or holds my purse for me. Truly hot.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

80's game shows? Hmmm, well, I couldn't name any so I guess I didn't watch them. Too Close for Comfort? I think that sounds like the name of a tv show but nothing that I've ever watched. I gather that this Bullock person must have either been a game show host or on Too Close for Comfort... or was on Too Close for Comfort and was the answer to the top prize question on an 80's tv trivia quiz game show? Maybe this is a generational (as opposed to gender) thing... I think most people posting to your forum are Gen X-ers (and maybe some Gen-Y as well) whereas I am from the other side of the Boomers (i.e., born in 1943, during the war, not part of the baby boom generation)... anyway, I can't think of any 80's tv shows at all except Hill Street Blues and St.Elsewhere. Oh yeah, and Dallas in the early 80's.

So I just popped open another window to the web and did a google.com search for this bullock guy and came up with somebody's aol page with a reference to Battlestar. That was a s.f. show with Lorne Greene... but that was like 1978 or 79? Oh, wait a minute, this guy was on ALF also? Okay, I think I saw part of an episode of that back when it was on (a small sample was enough)... well, whatever... I'm still missing the point of what a Jm Bullock was like... Anyone care to supply a different example of whatever it was he was supposed to be? Like from one of the Star Trek shows maybe?

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

How's this: (from internet movie database)

JM J. Bullock

Birth name Jim J. Bullock Date of birth (location): 9 February 1955, Casper, Wyoming, USA

Sometimes Credited As: Jim J. Bullock

Filmography as: Actor, Notable TV guest appearances

1."Jim J. and Tammy Faye Show, The" (1996) TV Series (as Jim J. Bullock) .... Host ... aka "Jim J. and Ann Show, The" (1996) (new title)

2."Boogies Diner" (1994) TV Series .... Gerald

3.Switch (1991) .... The Psychic

4."ALF" (1986) TV Series .... Neal Tanner (1989-)

5.Spaceballs (1987) .... Prince Valium

6."Hollywood Squares" (1986) TV Series .... Regular (1987-89)

7."Too Close for Comfort" (1980) TV Series .... Monroe Ficus ... aka "Ted Knight Show, The" (1986) (new title)

Notable TV guest appearances

1."Duckman" (1994) (voice) in episode: "Cellar Beware" (episode # 1.10) 5/21/1994

2."Seinfeld" (1990) playing "Attendant #1" in episode: "Airport, The" (episode # 4.12)11/25/1992

3."ALF" (1986) playing "Neal Tanner"

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

MellieBee, sounds like you have the hots for Steve McQueen in Towering Inferno... or what was that firefighter movie that was out about five years or six years ago?

*sigh* So what can those of us do who work in offices... rarely drip with sweat from work (except a few weeks ago when the airconditioning went out)...

Okay, so I've run (literally, as in run with running shoes) to the store and back (six miles round trip) returning with a package of tampons, step into the kitchen, manly sweat running down my manly chest, open a cold bottle of Killian's Irish Red Lager and chug down half the bottle, cross to the oven just in time to take out the pan of brownies I'd mixed up and popped into the oven just before running to the store, and say "Ah've listened to your car, mah little honey bun, and ah'm a-gonna tune that little ol' engine up so it runs sweet and smooth... jest as soon as Ah take a quick shower."

Well, some of us male creatures take cars to mechanics for tune-ups. I can check my oil and add a quart if it is down. That is about as far as I want to go at automotive maintenance. I enjoy driving them but have never had any interest in working on them. However, my wife used to enjoy visiting her father and tuning up her car with him. I don't think that has anything to do with manliness (or womanliness).

Actually, I understand your comments Pamie and agree with you up to the point where you indicated that being able to tune automobiles by ear was a manly trait. (I dunno, maybe Eric can do that, but I think you are dealing in stereotypes here... What if I were to say that women are defined by how closely they match some fashion model or how well they cook....hmmmm?)

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

Okay, sue me, I'm throwing in a little fantasy in my search for manliness.

And don't tell me that women aren't judged by the way they cook. I served my meatloaf to a group of guys late one night following the poker/drinking binge and every single guy in the room looked at Eric with envy after having just one bite. "This guy can get this whenever he wants?"

Women are judged, just the smart ones don't do it out loud.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

Yeah, I can make a pretty good meatloaf also.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

Hm, last night I was doubled over on the toilet with the worst cramps in the world, crying because I was in so much pain. My ex-boyfriend, David (I was staying there 'cause my Mom is staying at my place) hears me crying and wakes up, comes into the bathroom and comforts me at 5am. He brought me a bucket to barf in and even peed in the shower (he washed it out thouroughly this morning) so I wouldn't have to move while in so much pain. I guess I expected no less, but I was really very touched by his concern. I love it that guys aren't usually bothered by bodyily functions (whether healthy or not), and when they're willing to stick it out with you in a smelly bathroom in the dead of night, well, that's manly.

I also like how my current boyfriend will tell me I'm beautiful and talented and cool and sexy over and over and over again without tiring or complaining that I should know that already. There's nothing like knowing you're going to get your ego stroked by a sincere man to make you look forward to a date!! He even manages not to sound like a broken record (after two months of dating). He manages to be so mature and charming without sounding smarmy or losing his sense of FUN. What a MAN!

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

I would like it to be known that I frequently say to my boyfriend, "You have to make dinner. Friends is on."

I'm also glad to know that I'm not the only woman who goes nuts for a guy doing dishes. The problem is that I could never control myself long enough for him to actually finish the dishes, so I'd wind up finishing them myself. Now we have a dishwasher, and my sex life has declined dramatically.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

The best thing is a man holding a tiny baby or with a baby in a stroller. Just the two of them out together walking, shopping, whatever. It shows a man's sensitive and responsible side. I love to see that. I know a guy that is a body builder..big, intimidating guy. He walks his girlfriend's toy poodle with the pink leash. THAT'S love! See? No male slavery on this post, baby!

-- Anonymous, August 11, 1999

I used to take judo lessons from a Midwestern grandmother; she and the women in her classes all had a thing for Omar Sharif. It seems to be universal for women of a certain age. For anyone of the Omar Sharif generation, (or anyone) can you please explain this particular fascination to me?

-- Anonymous, August 11, 1999

Getting home and finding your wife in a tired heap in the living room, and offering to cook dinner even though it's not your turn, and not finding any exciting food in the kitchen, and taking your wife out for dinner instead, and paying with your own money instead of putting it on the joint credit card. Manly to end all manliness in my book. (I'm just a girl who likes to be treated well, at the end of the day).

-- Anonymous, August 11, 1999

Manly to me is a guy who is big and strong enough to kick everyone's ass but is intelligent enough NOT to do it. *sigh*

-- Anonymous, August 11, 1999

I can't believe I got so many people to talk about JM J Bullock. I am the King!

:)

-- Anonymous, August 12, 1999

That "peeing in the shower" response still has me rolling! As far as the chore thing goes, I guess I can accept that dishes and other chores are manly because I'd love it just once if when my wife and I had to trade vehicles, the gas light wasn't on in hers. Or if she could just once take the trash out instead of setting it by the door to greet me when I get home from work. But at the end of the day, I'm OK with all of it, because occasionaly we'll be out in public and she'll be in front and look back at me over her shoulder while giving her butt a little shake...sigh...

-- Anonymous, August 12, 1999

Actually, what I consider to be manly is frying bacon in the nude.

Try it, you'll feel so macho afterward.

-- Anonymous, August 12, 1999

I just want to dredge up the guy (who was it? Rich?) who complained that when a guy goes to buy tampons or pads for his girlfriend, there's always a hot woman in the line with him...

That's why it's sexy and manly, you dorks!

I love to be standing in line with a guy by himeself buying "feminine products" and looking cool about it. It's like he's saying, "Yeah, you're hot, but you know, there's this woman at home who I really love and I'm doing everything I can to take care of her. You? You're just some cutie in a supermarket. Who's buying YOUR tampons? Not me, baby. I've got love; I don't need you."

Now that's sexy.

Maybe that's what everything here boils down to: What a lot of women find sexy and "manly" is a man who is not only not afraid, but proud to show that he's happy with the woman he's got, is actively trying to keep her around, and isn't looking around for another one. That's it. Boxer shorts and chores say, "Look how much I love you! Please stick around!" Buying tampons and holding purses say, "I'm taken and I'm not afraid to show it!"

There ya go, guys. Secret to success. ::grin::

-- Anonymous, August 13, 1999

Sabrina wrote:

Manly to me is a guy who is big and strong enough to kick everyone's ass but is intelligent enough NOT to do it. *sigh*

I've been reading the posts to this forum over the last couple of days, and I'm seeing a pattern that reinforces a pet theory of mine you may or may not be ready for: People under 30 or insane.

Why do I bring this up in a forum about manliness? Because as a guy, it's easier for me to spot the insanity in the female half of the species. If the forum topic were womanliness, and a ton of guys posted to it, most of the women would be able to spot the under 30's as nutjobs. But since that isn't the case, it's the women who get ambushed today with my subset theory: Women under 30 or insane.

Now, most of the examples the ladies are giving of manliness are in the nature of a double-bind: I want a man capable of beating the crap out of Curly, or break the neck of his cock-tease wife, like Lennie Small in Of Mice And Men, but have no other Lennie-like qualities.

He must fit the profile of shirtless, dirty, firefighter, but must also be able to cry as he does the dishes, wiping his tears away with tampons. He has to spoon feed her icecream in the nude, while she is standing on the bathroom scale, crying, and with her mouth open.

He must make me look like a winner, but loser enough to do be kind enough to do what I want without asking. It's an inversion of the old Groucho Marx line: I would never go out with a guy who would be loser enough to date me.

I don't think this is necessarily bad behavior. It looks like I'm picking on Sabrina, but I believe that as a smart under-30-something, she is choosing to pursue the best option available to her.

The demographic with the highest ratio of violent crime victims? Teenaged girls. Why aren't women in there 20's the demographic with the highest ratio of violent crime victims? Because they've learned to move in with 250 lb firefighters. Now you just want that 250 lb firefighters that you live with to do every other load of laundry. It's not a big deal.

The annoying thing is that all I hear is the ladies complaining about the results of your behavior. It's like the stories about battered women who live with monsters. Men are just terrible aren't they?

Well, maybe you should reread that news report how Lyle Menendez got 10,000 marriage proposals after he was convicted of executing his mother. There is no us against them. There's only us suffering from the results of our own actions.

The problem is that people are too stupid to understand that bashing among stereotypes, male/female, black/white, Christian/Jew/Muslim, gay/straight, won't accomplish a blessed thing. I can sit here and type that all women are bad. They should be rounded up in camp and executed. Men are good. Women are bad. Then there would be no more bad, because all of the women are dead.

The thinking is inherently flawed, because there is no definition of male that makes sense if you don't know what female is. I defy anyone to come up with a description of either gender that doesn't rely on understanding of the other. If you wipe one gender from the slate clean the other gender no longer exists as a gender. There are no men where there are no women, and vice versa. The words have no meaning.

As to the resulting bad behavoir in men that the women are complaining about, well, you are getting what your gender has encouraged (and vice versa). I mean, Is there really a shortage of men who are willing to buy tampons in a store? I'm half thinking of going out and buying tampons just to be seen buying them. Now that I've said that, I've just branded myself a loser, and guaranteed my own datelessness until I enter the next higher tax bracket.

*whew!* What a relief to get that off my chest. Oh, and ladies, if you think that 250 lb firefighter you live with can keep you safe from losers like me, keep in mind that a 13 year old is strong enough tear off his ear and break his arm by bending it in directions it wasn't designed to bend. I know, I've sat in the classes where they learn to do it. (Hey, it's my day off--time to put Mendelssohn on the CD player, and pre-treat my laundry.)

-- Anonymous, August 13, 1999

Shit, I wrote or insane when I meant to write are insane. Hold up an "L" to your forehead, and call me Loser!

-- Anonymous, August 13, 1999

Not once, but twice!

If I had an Indian name, it would be, Sobs Into Dirty Underwear.

-- Anonymous, August 13, 1999

Two things are a real test for a man:

A REAL man is present when the baby is born. He was there at the start, he needs to be there at the finish....

A REAL man will clean up after their kids vomit, even when the mom can't bear to. --Al

-- Anonymous, August 13, 1999

Is it me, or does Joe Montegna have a really pleasant voice? I'm thinking if I went that way, I would think that he was very manly. (Maybe I should borrow a page or 2 from his book. Pamie, is there a filmography on Joe M? You were a chess club chick. Did you see Searching for Bobby Fischer? Am I spelling that name right?)

-- Anonymous, August 14, 1999

I tried to do a search on Yahoo for Joe Montegna, and... Elizabeth Montgomery died 4 years ago? I didn't know that! Why didn't anyone tell me? No Bewitched comemmorative... commemora... no Bewitched plates?

Ok, I've held the forum hostage long enough. I'll go away now.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 1999

Whenever I go to the grocery store I always buy tampons. The extra- large box with the blowing flowers and shit on it. Usually end up throwing them away, but, hey, all the hot chicks in the checkout lines sure swoon over me.

-Wil

-- Anonymous, August 15, 1999

Hmmm..I must be REALLY manly. I actually like doing dishes. I don't believe in maps 'cuz it's easier to stop and ask for directions. I love falling asleep in my girls lap, especially if she's scratching my back and would do it gladly in a room full of my guy friends. As far as the tampon thing goes..hell yeah, I'll buy 'em. On the other hand, I love to smoke and curse. I feel only MILDLY uncomfortable watching the baseball game while she does chores. And if left alone for an extended period of time, the houseplants could kinda die. So am I manly OR WHAT. Send in the troops!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 1999

Actually, what is really going on here is that the women are trying to convince men that sissy stuff is manly. They are trying to subvert the term 'manly'. They figure if they call sissy things 'manly' men will start doing them.

Nice try. It ain't gonna work.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 1999

Here is a little section I wrote about some of the things I consider qualify a man as my friend. I think they fit in the "manly" category as well. Men

1.He can call and say "I'm coming over". You haven't had a shower....and it doesn't matter.

2.You have gotten past that possibility of sex stuff.

3.He will be your date on major holidays when you have no one special in your life.

4.He tells you the truth about your hair, whether you like it or not.

5.He gives the best hugs.

6.He has probably held your head while you "kissed the porcelain God" and he still is your friend.

7.He has probably met your mother and.....she loves him.

8.You can call him at 2AM and cry to him about getting dumped, and he listens....or at least pretends too.

9.He might be able to fix your car and save you hundreds of dollars.

10.If you both hit "50" and are not married....he'd ask!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 1999

So, um.

I can often listen to a car, tell what's wrong with it by the sound, and I generally know how to fix it.

Does that make me manly?

-- Anonymous, August 18, 1999

I think the problem here is that the word "manly" (very loaded word that) is sorta standing in for "sexy, desirable, and wonderful to see in you, oh Man." "Manly..." I mean--what IS that, anyway? I'd chafe at a bunch of guys listing what made women "feminine," I think.

However, I have this to say...you poor boys can whimper that we're asking you to be sissies till yer blue in the face, but the secret is: if you do all this (basically just considerate and loving) stuff we think is "manly," you make us love you, we make less bitter cracks about men, there's lots of sex, everyone's happy.

And for all of you who hate buying tampons because some hot chick is always in line with you when you do--god. I'm glad I'm not YOUR girlfriend. That's pretty lame.

-- Anonymous, August 29, 1999

I have to agree with pamie here -- my boy making tea, doing the laundry and ironing his work clothes is wonderfully manly, BECAUSE he's secure enough to do that sort of thing, and to be proud of doing it! But, on the other hand, we just moved, and watching him lug all the heavy stuff, all sweaty and muscly, was very very manly. Rowr.

-- Anonymous, August 30, 1999

I think the reason that this topic got such a huge response is that it's a forum where primarily women are describing what is manly in a man. "Manly" may be a loaded term and metaphor for something different, but, whatever. The point is, I can scratch my ass and it's manly because I'm a man. No one's really saying differently, but I think it probably bothers guys a little when they hear that shaving cream in their ear is man-like when they're thinking,"But my last girlfriend hated that. Oh my God, she's a lesbian, because that's manly. What I was doing. That's what men do." I'm sure it's just that you read this stuff and want to be everything that every woman wants, when in actuality, I'm suitable for a very small margin of the female population. Ahh, the mysteries of life.

-- Anonymous, September 05, 1999

Wait a minute here! I do the dishes, vacuum the floor in my boxers, mop the kitchen floor, and do a lot of the "manly" things mentioned here, but it's because I live alone. Am I still being manly, even if there's no one around to impress? I don't get any sex or appreciation in return for my hard labor, but I have a very neat apartment. I guess that's my reward for being so manly. :)

-Dave-

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2000

This is humorous. Most of the women here seem to equate "manliness" with doing common household chores and moving heavy objects. You would have had a field day in the American South, circa 1850. Barbara, in her ten "manly" characteristics, perfectly describes a gay man. (Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with being gay; it's just not what most consider "manly".)

I can just imagine the epithets that would come my way if I described doing the dishes, vacuuming, or the laundry as "womanly". Or for that matter even describing traditionally male chores (the completion of which primarily benefited the man) as "womanly".

I'm not saying that men shouldn't equally share the burdens of maintaining a household where both spouses are breadwinners. I'm just saying that we did our share when we invented the vacuum cleaner, the washing machine, the electric iron, the automatic diswasher, etc. Think of all the time we saved you! Now it's time for us to sit back with a couple of beers, a bag of chips, and a very large remote control (with lots and lots of useless buttons) to watch TV. So ladies, don't worry your pretty little heads over what's "manly". We men will take care of that. And we'll let you know what we come up with after the game. Providing you stop nagging...

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2000

Well, it seems the first entry here is Aug.'99 and the last is July '00 so I don't know if anyone still reads this site. I did manage to get through everyones comments and had a few really good laughs (especially the one liner compilations of other's comments about what is manly). The simple fact is: nothing is inherantly manly or womanly outside of our physical anatomies with regards to pro- creation - and I don't mean sex here, I do specifically mean pro- creation. I think the humour or warm sensitivity of these comments wanes in light of the more ominous overtones of blind stereotyping. Societies, cultures and subcultures work as one seething mass of stereotyping and conditioning. Times change and so do our classifications of what we feel we are comfortable with (as societies at large - I'm not talking individuals right now). Some people's comments verged on saying this, but fell short: It's great to giggle about or compare thoughts about what you like in your perfect fantasy mate with other people (for a great number of reasons, the least of which is - it's interesting). But it's really sad that everyone is playing into the self applied mass societal definitions of what happens to be manly or womanly, at this period in time, in (what is for the most part) mainstream American culture. Isn't it more important to value another individuals special qualities without constantly having to compare them with others lesser and greater and different? When you take this to the more intimate level of loving someone, the respect of who they are (and who a person is is a constantly changing thing as they grow and develop) and the appreciation of having them thoroughly permeate your existance is a thing of beauty which transcends comparisons and catagorizations.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2001