I've recently been giving my prints a full, chromatic toning sequence; however, this also stains theareas of the print outside the crop. I've tried to reduce these areas to base-white with a couple of photographic reducers; but the only thing I've found which works is diluted Javex. It 'burns through' the finished, glossy layer, but this is irrelavent to me since the prints go either into my glossy-surface portfolio or behind glass. But I am worried about the archival and yellowing which might eventually creep in. Does anybody know if WashAid and a long wash (1-2 hours) will prevent deterioration and yellowing. Should I re-fix and then WashAid etc.? Any experience would be appreciated--including any true photographic reducers which are known to work well enough to reduce to base-white on sepia and selenium toned prints.

-- shawn gibson (shawn.gibson@utoronto.ca), July 20, 1999

Answers

I wouldn't answer this either...I'll try finding something photographic which will work...maybe masking off/Frisket or whatever its called...The Javex frightens me...

-- shawn gibson (shawn.gibson@utoronto.ca), July 22, 1999.

I don't know what Javex is. A US household bleach? If it 'burns through' the gloss, it sounds pretty nasty, and I would be worried about resulting permanence, even with a thorough wash.

I'm also unclear what a 'full, chromatic toning sequence' is. Sepia and selenium shouldn't affect the base whites, or stain the white borders.

Silver that has been converted to silver sulphide or silver selenide is much more stable, and correspondingly harder to remove. If the prints were insuficiently fixed, this might be what you have in the white borders.

-- Alan Gibson (Alan.Gibson@technologist.com), July 23, 1999.

-->I don't know what Javex is. A US household bleach? If it 'burns through' the gloss, it sounds pretty nasty, and I would be worried about resulting permanence, even with a thorough wash.

YEPPUR, MR. Gibson. It's a household bleach (in Canada, anyways...) It is nasty. I don't want to use it, but I don't like the stains on the borders of my print.

-->I'm also unclear what a 'full, chromatic toning sequence' is. Sepia and selenium shouldn't affect the base whites, or stain the white borders.

I just mean long durations--full tonings. I go through some crazy toning processes most of the time, rarely just selenium or just sepia; but in those simple cases (the latter), the borders DO remain base- white, as you'd expect. It's when I take it further that the borders tone, or stain or whatever it is, THIS is my 'normal' toning sequence (be prepared to freak out...): after develop-stop-fix and 10 minute wash, I do (1) a full selenium tone and 10 min. wash (2) re-develop- stop-full fix and 10 min. wash (otherwise the next step--sepia bleach again--goes on uncontrollably (3) sepia bleach, wash (4) sepia, wash (5) re-develop (sometimes) , stop (if re-developed), full fix (if without re-developing first, simply reduces the highs and 'quiets' the saturation) (6)archival wash, including Washaid... THIS is when the base goes the same colour as the toner. For example, if I tone a studio shot with a blown out white background (totally overexposed with no shadows), this part of the image and the borders will be almost the same density (have to look close to separate them), i.e., they will be of the same, toned (chromatic), value. I know I'm doing crazy stuff here, and maybe that's why the toning is affecting the base. Nonetheless, since I absolutely love the look I'm getting otherwise, I must find some way to reduce the borders--or live with them, especially in my portfolio. Javex--household bleach--simply frightens me--if it eats my skin, then what is it doing to a print I have spend a dozen hours and 10 sheets of expensive paper (etc.) on? -->Silver that has been converted to silver sulphide or silver selenide is much more stable, and correspondingly harder to remove. If the prints were insuficiently fixed, this might be what you have in the white borders.

I fix with Ilford Rapid Fixer, at 1:9, for 2 minutes. I use Agfa 111 now, developed in the Adams' Dektol mixture in the back of "The Print", for 2-3 minutes at the beginning of a session, then factorially as it becomes exhausted (wait till lights come up, multiply by 5--which I think I got through you, though I only really remember not knowing what the hell Adams meant by factorial development until someone around here explained it lucidly.). I know I should be fixing at film strength dilutions (1:4), could that be the problem?

-- shawn gibson (shawn.gibson@utoronto.ca), July 23, 1999.

Here in the US, Chlorox will stain prints big time! In fact, if you bleach in dilute chlorox for about 15 minutes, the emulsion will slide off the paper (been there, done that). Don't treat your prints to such abuse!!! Potassum ferreoyanide is the thing to use for bleaching .

It sounds like your prints are not properly washed. Try the Ilford process and my rationale(actually Ilfords work) for its effectiveness in one of the other threads here! My prints tone clean every time.

-- gene crumpler (nikonguy@worldnet.att.net), July 23, 1999.

Hi Gene, I am pretty sure (cross my fingers) my fixing sequence is adequate. I've even switched to the film strength (1:4) Ilford Rapid from 1:9. The problem I'm having is completely predictable, considering the crazy toning sequence I give. When I do a normal tone with sepia or selenium or both (sepia then selenium creates a nice purple brown that's almost two-toned on Agfa 111...)--all turns out normally, no stains at all. But when I start playing with bleaches/re-development etc., and then immerse the print in sepia, the WHOLE base of the print turns...well...various colours depending on all the variables. I mean, for example, the whole base of the print turns to a very chromatic yellow ochre, or orange, or red. This IS the effect I want; but I want the white borders to come back. What about the ferrocyanide in a less dilute formula? Thanks Gene, and I would like to ask you some questions about Tech Pan in Diafine at ISO 100...I asked on photo.net, but I guess you haven't run into the question...if you're up for it...

-- shawn gibson (shawn.gibson@utoronto.ca), July 26, 1999.

I may have explained factorial development, but I would never recommend it. (If it works for you, that's also fine.)

I'm not sure that your washes are generally sufficient, assuming fibre paper. The Ilford processing sequence assumes a minimal fixing period, etc, rather than such a wondrous sequence of toning, redeveloping, and so on.

Your last post says that you want the base to turn a wonderful colour (I assume this includes the white portions in the image), and this happens, but you want to keep the border clean. OK, that's easy. Before that sepia bath, you can 'paint' the border with a resist. This could be Cow Gum (a rubber solution glue, available from hardware stores), an Art Masking Fluid (from art shops), or Fotomask MK50 (from a good photo shop). Fotomask is the most expensive, but marks the prints less.

This certainly sounds a load of fun. I would love to see the results, if you put them on the Web.

-- Alan Gibson (Alan.Gibson@technologist.com), July 27, 1999.

-->I may have explained factorial development, but I would never recommend it. (If it works for you, that's also fine.)

I'm just experimenting with it; the truth is, I usually just develop for about 1 minute longer than it takes for what seems to be the maximum contrast of the print to come up...

-->I'm not sure that your washes are generally sufficient, assuming fibre paper. The Ilford processing sequence assumes a minimal fixing period, etc, rather than such a wondrous sequence of toning, redeveloping, and so on.

I'm using fibre. My washes are getting longer and longer, as per too many screw-ups (stains especially...). I've started doing a ten minute wash, then ten minutes in Washaid, then 10 minutes in water again AFTER EVERY (toning) STEP; then, at completion, I do the same thing, but extend the final wash to as long as possible, usually at least an hour. I hope this is enough...

-->you want to keep the border clean. OK, that's easy. Before that sepia bath, you can 'paint' the border with a resist. This could be Cow Gum (a rubber solution glue, available from hardware stores), an Art Masking Fluid (from art shops), or Fotomask MK50 (from a good photo shop). Fotomask is the most expensive, but marks the prints less.

I think this is what I've been looking for. Fantastic, I'll try it Alan.

-->This certainly sounds a load of fun. I would love to see the results, if you put them on the Web.

It is definitely a blast to do...when it WORKS...I'm getting saturated reds and pinks and oranges and warm yellows just by playing around with the sepia, i.e., I will have four trays: 1 Kodak and 1 Berg's sepia, and ditto for the bleach (1 of each company's)--I just go in and out of trays like there is no tomorrow (using the above wash sequence between each tray) until I get something I like (OR until I destroy the print!) I find toning VERY difficult to predict, even if I do EXACTLY the same thing, with all variables from film roll and process-on as controlled as possible, I will STILL end up with two very different looks. I have been thinking of doing some 'series' tones; I suppose the only way I'm going to be able to do this is to use very large trays and put all prints in each step at the same time... Thanks a lot for your help, again, Alan...Shawn

-- shawn gibson (shawn.gibson@utoronto.ca), July 27, 1999.