This was passed on to me from my children's sitter.

"I have a friend that works for KCP&L, he said that they started testing for Y2K a couple of months ago, guess what? They failed. KCP&L has been using power from off of the power grid and has not been able to produce any electricity for themselves for the last couple of months. Something goes wrong when they test and causes them not to be able to use their own generated electricity. They have to borrow power from other parts of the country from off of the grid. It is a little late to be failing Y2K tests. They don't have much time to get ready. He said to expect brown-outs and black-outs this July and August when the weather is hot and everyone turns on their air conditioning."

-- Victoria (victoria@oz.sunflower.org), June 20, 1999

Answers

"..pay no attention to those dangling oxygen masks. This flight is fine and running right on schedule..."

-- a (a@a.a), June 20, 1999.

This report looks like its accuracy/inaccuracy should soon be evident. Meanwhile, I, for one, will wait and see.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), June 20, 1999.

Please provide some proof to back up this nonsense. "My kids sitter has a friend" is not proof - it is Doomer logic.

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), June 20, 1999.

Similar rumors have been floating around for a while. What's common among them are:

1) Efforts to generate power continually fail and nobody can figure out why.

2) The source of the rumor is never more specific than something like Victoria's children's sitter's friend's friend.

3) Where the utility is named (it varies, and sometimes it's not named at all), Rick Cowles investigates and finds no truth to it.

4) 'a' swallows it every time it crops up.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 20, 1999.

Perhaps Wilferd can shed some light on this (once they're done Father's Daying) We've been disssscussssing something that *might* provide some verification of this! Apparently they have observed an old *abandoned* power generating facility in Kansas City that has suddenly been buzzing with new activity and equipment.(but nothing coming from the stacks...yet) We concluded they were in the process of attempting to bring it back on line. Don't know.......I'll drive up there! (just kidding) Recall the explosion not long ago? Hmmmmmmmm

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 20, 1999.

QUICK a.....UNPLUG FLINT'S OXYGEN MASK!!! HURRY UP!!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 20, 1999.

Y2K PRO has been dealing with a lack of oxygen for some time now, already

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 20, 1999.

I have to agree with Flint and Y2KPro on this one unless someone can better substantiate the facts. My children's sitter's friend give us a break.

Go a telephone? Call Power company? Call local/county govt? Get some facts!

-- Bill P (porterwn@one.net), June 20, 1999.

Some questions for your sitter to ask her friend:

1. What is her friend's job function?

2. What type of test is being run? If it is an offline test that might explain the need to draw off the grid.

3. Are brownouts that unusual in Kansas City in the summer? Many areas are net importers off the grid by design. It saves the cost of building excess capacity for peak demand periods. Many industrial users buy blocks of power with an interuptible caluse that allows the power company to restrcit the industrial concerns' use of power. Industrial interupts happened frequently when I lived in Chicago.

-- Bill P (porterwn@one.net), June 20, 1999.

From the Westergaard/Ratcliffe debate:

"Westergaard uses inferential analysis. That means you disregard all information everything that's deliberately given to you by someone, and pay attention to info that comes in over the transom by accident. Then look for patterns & mosaics, and a consistent picture drawn from independent sources."

OPTION #1: We believe that most of the facts we derive by this method are as Flint suggests, simply folklore, and throw them out (this is essentially what the OJ Simpson jury did).

OPTION #2: We believe that generation of such a large body of negative anecdotal evidence would require too large of a conspiracy to perpetrate (this is essentially what the OJ jury SHOULD have done).

Better safe (#2) than sorry (#1).

-- a (a@a.a), June 20, 1999.

Bill: Call them? Ask them? HELL-OOO. Why bother being on this forum if you'd swallow that? Come on now.....

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 20, 1999.

We live in the KC metro area, across the state line from KCMO. Our power is generated by another power company. Approximately 18 months or so ago, our city took a power plant 'out of commission' because they said they could buy the electricity cheaper from someone else. They completely mothballed it; flooded the boilers, etc. It has looked like a ghose town there ever since, with the exception of a car or two that we figured belonged to the watchman.

This plant is within a mile and a half of our home, and we frequently travel past it (at least 5X/week). After they took it out of commission, it was rare to see more than one or two cars there. All coal from the coal yard was gone, nothing coming out of the stacks...looked abandoned.

Two weekends ago, my spouse and I drove by the plant, and first noticed the parking lot was completely full of cars and pickup trucks. There were several big tankers in the back lot (which hadn't been there previously), and a tanker was adjacent to the main plant building with a hose hooked up, running from the building to the plant. And.....guess what? There was steam coming out of the stacks! The parking lot was fuller than either one of us had ever noticed before, even when it was in 'normal operation'. Lots of folks wearing hard hats out milling around close to the plant.

We both felt this was *interesting*, to say the least! During the week last week, I made it a point to take this route when running errands, to see if there was any other activity going on. I did not notice steam from the stack, but the tanker remained adjacent to the building all week long (with hose still attached to tanker and building). There were still lots of cars in the parking lot, although not as many as the weekend before, but more than there had been when the plant was operating under 'normal' conditions before they de-commissioned it.

Yesterday, we again drove by. The tanker next to the building was gone. We had the windows in the car down, and could hear the unmistakeable sound of the plant in operation. We did not see anything coming from the stacks, however, but the sound was just like it always was. My spouse noticed that there were 3 big natural gas lines running into the building. Lots and lots of folks wearing hard hats standing in the vicinity of the stack. Lots and lots of cars in the parking lot.

We speculated that they had test fired the plant under diesel last weekend, and natural gas this weekend. Still did not see any coal in the coal yard, but they are located directly adjacent to a rail spur, so that could be brought in quickly, I suppose.

Hubby has his Operating Engineer's license (so knows a little about what we're talking about), and thought it a little 'curious' that they would go to the trouble (and expense) of bringing a mothballed plant up into operation, just to 'see if they could', unless they thought there might be a *real reason* to do so.

I will try to find out some other information about it this week, and will post what I find.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), June 20, 1999.

Will,

Call them to get FACTS, verifiable facts from multiple sources. Not somebody's children's sitter's friend's rumor!

And beside who appointed you to say who can and cannot be on this forum.

-- Bill P (porterwn@one.net), June 20, 1999.

FOLLOW THE MONEY!!

http://www.moneynet.com/content/EQUIS/News/Newsheadlines.asp?SYMBOL=kl t

-- treading litely (rs@marketwatch.com), June 20, 1999.

OK Bill, lay some *facts* on me that this power co or ANY other one has provided concerning the continued availability of power. I'm asking for *facts* now Bill. Not vague "assurances", not "feelings of confidence", no "finger-pointing"....FACTS Bill...just give me one of the *mutitude* of facts, please. They've been truthful so far, right? Get a grip on the *facts* Bill and quit wasting our time with unrealistic suggestions, OK? Go out there and dig up some facts and then come back and clue us all in. We've been franticly searching for some for a LONG time now....there just aren't ANY, Mr. MOOOO

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 20, 1999.

What adds to the 'mix' of this question is what percent of electricity, if any, does the Wolf Creek Nuclear Power Plant near Burlington, KS provide to this metro area? What is the status of Wolf Creek? How heavily (if at all) does KCP&L rely on this plant for their energy needs? Are they anticipating not getting power from Wolf Creek? Or maybe at a reduced level?

Will Continue was right; KCP&L had a power plant explosion some months ago. I do not believe it is back up yet. Initial reports seemed to indicate that the explosion would not significantly impact their ability to provide power to this area. I wonder if that has changed.

Don't know how or if the explosion has impacted them greater than what they had initially believed or not.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), June 20, 1999.

FOLLOW THE MONEY!!

htt://www.nrc.gov/NRR/DAILY/psr.htm

Status of Wolf Creek and other nuke plants!

-- treading litely (rs@marketwatch.com), June 20, 1999.

FACTS!!

http://www.y2kbase.com

-- treading litely (rs@marketwatch.com), June 20, 1999.

Just one more thing: Brownouts are *not* a normal part of summer living here in the KC metro area. I've lived here 42 out of 44 years, and to the best of my knowledge, we've never had one. Yes, they *have* had times when they've asked the public to reduce electricity consumption during peak periods, but no outages (brownout OR blackout) have happened, if I recall correctly.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), June 20, 1999.

Will Continue,

I find your style repulsive but here are facts.

I live in Cincinnati, Ohio. Cincy is served by Cinergy, formerly Cincinnati Gas and Electric. Verifiable facts about Cinergy are:

They have 11,000 megawatts of generating power. On 12/31/1998, local demand was 3,000 megawatts. All plants are coal fired with multiple redundant fuel capability. Coal is supplied by way of Ohio River from West Virginia. The locks on the Ohio work by gravity no embedded chips or computers so the river will flow and be navigable by barge traffic again not dependent on chips or computers.

Dr. Yardeni has ranked Cinergy #1 in USA based on his methodology which I understand weights dollars budgeted vs dollars spent compared to change in budget from start.

Cinergy claims (I have not been able to verify this but it was made under testimony to City Council so I'll believe them until better data turns up refuting this) that they have rolled all clocks ahead; 5 out of 5 plants are running as if it was 2000 now. Cinergy claims they will have 70 days of coal stocked for each plant. They also claim they will have 500 staff on a 24/7 deployment at every sub station, plant etc to run if OTHERS have problems. Cinergy claims that two of their plants are older analog plants and that a search of embedded chips at all plants was completed and necessary steps to replace the Y2K dependent chips was completed by 12/31/1998.

Cinergy did say that they see the biggest threat coming from other utilities that have not taken adequate remediatory steps. Cinergy acknowledged that they depend on exporting power to the grid for a significant portion of their income. Cinergy claimed all of their plants will be running during December 1999 to help others if needed. There is a capacity expansion at local plant that will double that plant's capacity scheduled to come online June 2000.

So Miss Know-It-All, I think you are sadly mistaken to assume that Y2K = 10 just because that is one of the options. I am not a polly, I believe Y2K will hit some harder than others and alot depends on what happens during balance of 1999. I expect a 4-6 but have prepped for a 7. I'm done prepping and now working with state and church Emergency Preparedness and Disaster Relief Services to help if needed. I hope I am allowed to continue to reply to "your" forum.

-- Bill P (porterwn@one.net), June 20, 1999.

Bill, did you get all of your information from a "phone call"? Have you seen the reports of all of your utilities third party verification? Or are you taking them at their word. Glad *yours* has some contingency planning. Does it cover all bases? Lucky, lucky you. What about the rest of the country? Do you think your utility will be able to "pick up the slack" for any of the rest of us? What's your depedency upon nuclear power? It's just not as cut and dry as you would imply. Sorry you don't care for my style. I'm pretty sick of big ego high wage people looking down their noses with smirks, implying some of us are stupid because we don't want to bet our kids on the word of large corporations with their hands in the pockets of the government. Silly, silly me. I guess I do have alot of nerve getting "flamed", don't I? My government is covering up the corporate cover-ups so they can ALL protect the doomed banking system. My fellow Americans are chewing cud and mooing and some have the nerve to insist *I* moo or get out of the road. I *NEVER* asked you to leave this forum....read it again and then stay out of my road.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 20, 1999.

WILL C.

Are you married???? :) :)

-- David Butts (dciinc@aol.com), June 20, 1999.

To Bill P.

You have some apologizing to do to the little lady. As Paul Harvey would say..."Stand by for News"!!! I'll be back shortly with the facts to back up Victoria and Willfred and others. You want facts, you want data, I'll give you some, and then more. You might just want to take a moment to apologize in advance, because it will take me a little while to dig out reference links and major news stories to confirm this. Also howabout a pending lawsuit by a major steel company against KCP&L...over this very issue. Go ahead and apologize now, while I get the material together. OH... and then later I'll respond to the CINERGY situation also. You see Bill, my investigations and news contacts extend far beyond the oil thread that I posted last week. I've got a lot of data on the electrical utilities stretched over the western two-thirds of the country. It's not great with them either. I also only vaguely mentioned my telecommunications contacts in a previous post. Those also are fairly extensive. I'll eventually get around to that subject as well, though in that field, I sense it is critical but not quite as much as Oil and Electricity. As Arnie Schwarzenneger put it ... "I'll be back"... R.C.

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 20, 1999.

RC:

Just a thought, but why don't you cross-post any material you have about KCP&L (and other electric companies) to www.euy2k.com (Rick Cowles' site).

That way we'll see what some people who actually work in the utility industry think of it.

-- Johnny Canuck (nospam@eh.com), June 20, 1999.

Thanks R.C. "I'll be waiting". And I don't mean for the apology! (why do I feel like John Wayne just rode through this thread?)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 21, 1999.

Bill, Flint, We're serving you up a nice platter of crow would you like some ketchup? Read 'em and weep...and eat up...Crow is good for you.

First of all, I have extensive news media contacts from Cincinnati to Kansas City and beyond. In fact, all over. Some are more in-depth than others. It comes, I guess from working in the media and at the Presidential level on the traveling White House staff.

Now, let me say that my contacts and sources within the industry itself present a somewhat similar and grim situation as with the Oil industry. However, there are differences, that make the electrical situation slightly more hopeful in itself. More on that whole spectrum in a later post when I have the time.

Regarding the Kansas City Power & Light Company situation. I have sources that tell me a grim picture for the electrical situation in Kansas City. KCP&L is just one of the providers in that region, but it is the most prolific. KCP&L is going thru a merger and this has complicated Y2K remediation. You want to talk about Pollyana's? KCP&L's ivory castle is loaded with them. First of all, they're in denial about Y2K and they don't want to be bothered with the facts from the boys out in the field doing the work. Furthermore, if they get bad newsthey like to fire the messenger. Bad news could upset the merger and individual white collar exec's jobs. With the merger some boys in the ivory tower are gonna be let go, and no one wants to volunteer to walk the plank. Y2K remediation, suffers as a result of this power struggle. Some of the messengers have been fired. My sources would rather not follow that path. They'd rather go AWOL on 12/31/99 regardless of their being assigned to work that day. They'll be heading out of the city and for the hills of southern Missouri to their cabins on the lake that have become Y2K refuges. Now, why would they do that? Hmmmm???????? This ought to tell you something.

Guess what? These guys...I have 5 direct personal company sources on this...are reflective of sources I've encountered in other power companies across much of the middle and western parts of the USA. They all are telling similar stories regarding actions by top management. The full story is being bottled up for fear of job losses. Some wonder about their very lives and health. That's how fearful some of these folks are. They know the stakes are high and they're just the peons. Why stick their necks out? Just go with the flow till it stops. Also most do not have a clue about other situations in the industry. They really suspect that their companies are the unique exception, or that their first hand incidents (in many cases) must be unique because they never hear about it in the news. Therefore, their experiences are isolated and must not be reason to panic. Some however, as in the KC cases...have been more on the alert and realize the implications for their areas. These guys are gonna abandon ship. They just haven't told anyone in the company yet, and they won't. They simply won't show up. Their first priority is to protect and preserve their families. Do you blame them?

Now on to documented facts. There was a Power Plant explosion of an older KCP&L facility in the metro section of Kansas City. This was their Hawthorn plant, of which part of the system had already been idled for some time. Y2K remediation efforts have been ongoing. My engineer sources within that firm indicate that while the company publicly refuses to admit the blast was Y2K related, the boys in field know otherwise. Testing had been ongoing during the day and is believed to have been either a direct or indirect cause of the blast. Furthermore, embedded systems remediation is a disaster, (like with so many other power companies) these guys tell me, that their company isn't even gonna come close to actually and literally testing all the embedded systems. In fact they keep discovering new ones they didn't have on the inventory. One fellow likened the remediation program as being run by Larry, Moe and Curly. Oh boy, now that is wonderful, isn't it?

Meanwhile the boys in the KCP&L CIO department keep cranking out the positive media spin. Meanwhile the media in the KC area have not awakened to the Y2K problem with KCP&L. I'm not sure why. Of course there are very few investigative reporters in K.C. anymore. The KC Star has a few as does the CBS TV affiliate. The other TV stations investigative units are primarily oriented towards political investigations rather than business. My contacts indicate that there will likely be more focus on KCP&L and Y2K in the next 90 days. For some reason the media wants to wait this thing out. Reporters I've spoken with say that they just aren't really getting assigned to any stories with any real meat potential on Y2K. It's usually novelty or puff pieces that they get assigned to. So what has been reported?

Check out these stories from the Kansas City Star:

[NOTE: You can go to the Kansas City Star home page and go to their search engines and get a copy of the articles. They do charge however for archived stories. www.kcstar.com ]

Published on 02/18/99, Page A1 , THE KANSAS CITY STAR A 'MIRACLE' OF SURVIVAL IN BLAST THAT SHOOK CITY "Investigators today hope to get their first close look at KCP&L's Hawthorn 5 power plant, where an explosion early Wednesday rocked people awake 20 miles away, knocked nearby workers off their feet and launched flames 200 feet into the night sky."

You can go to the Kansas City Star home page and go to their search engines and get a copy of the articles. They do charge however for archived stories.

Published on 03/03/99, Page C1 , THE KANSAS CITY STAR KCP&L EVALUATES BLAST 'WE DO NOT ANTICIPATE' AN INCREASE IN BILLS AFTER DAMAGE TO POWER PLANT, OFFICIAL SAYS

Here's another one:

Published on 02/26/99, Page C1 , THE KANSAS CITY STAR KCP&L SAYS UNIT TO BE READY BY SUMMER "Hawthorn 6, a new generating unit near the Kansas City Power & Light Co. unit that exploded last week, is expected to be running in time for summer power demands."

Published on 02/23/99, Page D4 , THE KANSAS CITY STAR BOILER GROUP EMPHASIZES VIGILANCE AFTER ACCIDENTS BLASTS IN KC AND MICHIGAN PROMPT WARNING "A national group that promotes safety in the use of boilers such as the one used at Kansas City Power & Light Co.'s Hawthorn 5 plant is calling for additional vigilance after several accidents."

AND HERE WE HAVE MORE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE BLAST 6 MONTHS EARLIER HMMM.

Published on 08/21/98, Page C2 , THE KANSAS CITY STAR METRO DIGEST

KANSAS CITY "Releasing steam: Inspectors with Kansas City Power & Light Co. have not determined what caused a steam pipe to release an enormous amount of pressure from the Hawthorn generating station late Wednesday. Rescue workers responded to the plant at Hawthorne and River Front roads and sealed off the area. There was no fire and no injuries. Service to customers was not disrupted, said Phyllis Desbien, a KCP&L spokeswoman."

AND THE PROBLEMS GET WORSE FOR KCP&L at Kaufman stadium for the Kansas City Royals MLB team. It seems that KCP&L has been having problems Everywhere in its system. Here again we have another transformer substation problem.

Published on 06/05/99, Page D1 , THE KANSAS CITY STAR ROYALS POWERLESS TO PLAY ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS FORCE FRIDAY'S GAME TO BE POSTPONED "The Royals may have had a bad time on their recent road trip, but it didn't get any brighter Friday night at Kauffman Stadium. The Royals' lights-out offense took on a whole new meaning Friday night"

Published on 12/28/98, Page A1 , THE KANSAS CITY STAR UTILITY COMPANIES CAN OFFER OPTIMISM, BUT NO GUARANTEES "At Missouri Gas Energy, employees will be posted at regulator stations across the area at midnight on New Year's Eve next year, poised to turn valves manually if computer problems hit. Kansas City Power & Light Co. is planning to increase the stockpile of coal that powers the company's generating plants, fattening the usual 30- to 45-day surplus by 10 percent - just in case the railroads aren't running."

NOW THAT IS JUST A SAMPLING OF SOME OF KCP&L's problems. This last post was to show you the latest story on Y2K and KCP&L that I could find in the search engines for the KC Star. For more details visit the KC Star newspaper website at www.kcstar.com

BUT THAT IS NOT ALL NOT ALL BY ANY MEANS

I was alerted to this next story by relatives in the K.C. area. It is in regards to a news story that ran on the CBS TV affiliate. This was part of their investigative unit's "Call for Action" which ran a series of exposes on KCP&L and claims by a local steel manufacturing company that is complaining about KCP&L's unreliability. They claim it is costing them money and that they may have to move out. Here, read Channel 5's "Call for Action" newsletter you can see it for yourself by going to their website at www.kctv.com  click on "Call for Action" and go to the archives for May 13th edition. Here it is below:

http://www.kctv.com/ CALL FOR ACTION Internet Newsletter May 13, 1999 ------------------ TODAY'S TOPICS EXPLOSION AT HAWTHORN PLANT Y2K SCAM INTERNET SERVICE TROUBLE RECALLS NORTHLAND DEALERSHIP PROBLEMS ---------------- EXPLOSION AT HAWTHORN PLANT The GST Steel company in the northeast part of town spends millions each year for electricity to make steel wire and rods. Last year the company says it had to spend an extra half million dollars because KCPL's power to the plant was unreliable and halted production 14 times. GST also claims the utility has maintenance problems all over the city.

We obtained records GST filed with the Missouri Public Service Commission, which regulates utilities. In them, GST claims "reliability problems encompass KCPL's entire system," and "leaves in doubt," KCPL's ability to meet the needs of customers. GST says there were 26 unplanned outages at KCPL plants like this during four months of last year, and "no generating unit" operated everyday for a full month. GST claims KCPL has cut back on maintenance, spending about 12% less than it did four years ago. The steel company says KCPL "cannot be permitted to allow the reliability of its system to deteriorate."

We also learned GST claims February's explosion at the Hawthorn plant was, "the culmination of the increasingly erratic and unreliable operation of the KCPL system." The company says KCPL plans to charge it millions more for electricity because of that explosion, and that will have dire consequences. GST says the added costs, KCPL's poor maintenance, and tough competition in the steel industry have created an "emergency" and placed the steel company in a "precarious situation." GST says the problems may force it to close the plant, which employs 834 people, with a payroll of $66 million. GST asked the public service commission to stop KCPL from raising its rates and to investigate the utility's "deteriorating system."

KCPL calls the allegations unsupported speculation and innuendo. In a written statement KCPL says is "consistently ranks better than national industry averages" in the number and length of outages. The company adds: "We are confident that our record of performance speaks for itself." KCPL also says some of the power failures at the steel plant were caused by GST's equipment and problems at another plant. The company claims GST made the allegations to force it to reduce the steel company's rates; rates KCPL says are a bargain. That bargain will continue KCPL says, even if GST has to pay more because of the Hawthorn Explosion.

The staff of the public service commission says: "To date it sees no reason to conduct a special review" of KCPL's maintenance, and the commission recently decided not to investigate. The commission says GST improperly filed the complaint and if it wants the allegations investigated it should re-file the complaint. GST told us they may do just that, because they think the facts are substantial to back up the allegations."

END OF STORY MY COMMENTS RESUME:

Now the last I heard was that the company did refile the claim. They are also planning and maybe already have filed a multi-million dollar lawsuit against KCP&L. I'm not surebut I think it might be the very first one related to Y2K problems with an Electrical Utility Company.

NOW I'M NOT DONE YET. THERE IS MORE.

There have been a series of fires in the KCP&L system this spring. Some made the news but I've not been able to track it in anyone's files. These were in the outlying areas of the Kansas side of the metropolitan area and apparently are not part of any archives in the KC Star. I was unable to search the suburban papers as they don't have such features available. However, there was a serious substation fire, in either Olathe, or Overland Park, I can't remember which, or both in the last few months. There have also been a number of smaller transformer fires as well. My sources say that these are definitely due to Y2K testing also.

Gee, I wonder why Rick Cowles hasn't been paying any attention to this story about KCP&L??? This company is an apparent basket case, Y2K-wise.

NOW boys and girls you little pollyana's out there who don't bother with the facts you're dealing with a bonafide retired news reporter who does check the facts. I know first hand from my interviews with the boys doing the job that things are not hunky-dory in "River City". This is just the tip of the iceberg. It is NOT getting reported as it should. Why? The media is now big business. Many of the media outlets are financially tied in to those they are supposed to investigate. This is not just limited to the TV networks but also the big print media, local TV stations and of course radio stations. This is due in large part to massive deregulation of almost every industry in the nation. The media, folks, have been compromised and you pollyanas have not been paying attention to the man behind the curtain pulling the levers. You'd rather watch the screen. Fortunately, Dorothy did bring her dog, Toto, to pull back the curtain and show us Mr. Wizard.

There will be more to come in later posts on the electric industry. Meanwhile, you Bob, who posted about how wonderful Cinergy is Guess what? They're in about the same shape as KCP&L but in different ways. I'll deal more on that in a later post when I have the time.

Meanwhile, Flint and Bobhow's that Crow? Did it get done enough for you? Need a little more salt and pepper? How about some ketchup? Where's Anita when you need to rub it in her face? Well, you people will just never get it until you become some of the early fatalities in Y2K. Sad thing is that it will be too late for us to rub it in your face that "we told you so" when it comes.

-- R.C. -- a.k.a. "John Wayne" (?) :-) (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

To Johnny Canuck,

I understand that your suggestion won't work. It is limited to folks with electrical utility domain registrations in their emails. I am not in the industry. I am an individual retired reporter presenting information shared to me by folks and friends actually doing the job of remediation in the electrical industry. These are the boys we're counting on to get us out of this mess. I am only reporting what they tell me directly. However, in the above case, I have provided some supporting documentation as back up to answer the questions raised by others in the thread. If Rick Cowles wants it, he can copy it over to them for comments.

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

R.C.:

Anita is right here right now, and she doesn't believe HALF of what you state. Anita has her OWN sources in the utility industry that tell her that everything is fine in her area.

I find it odd that folks ask Flint who is paying him to post on this forum, but nobody asks you the same question.

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), June 21, 1999.

Anita,

I just came to this forum by accident. I'm not paid by anyone to post. How about you? I'll bet there must be a whole raft of corporations paying you to post here and keep people happy? Or maybe you're on the government happy-face spinmeister squad. If you're not, maybe you could have a new short-lived career as a spinmeister. You've got the necessary talent.

Meanwhile... You apparently didn't bother to read the articles in my post above. I quote the Kansas City Star and KCTV-5's Newsletter from its investigative reporting unit "Call for Action."

Maybe we should get a video tape of KCTV's news stories? Would that help you any? No, not one bit. I could also name names, but that wouldn't do anyone any good. You'd call them a liar. They'd get turned in and fired.

I've talked with these people. I know them. They do NOT LIE. I also KNOW that they are quietly making preparations to head for the hills. That also should be sobering testimony. They're putting money where their mouths are. And these aren't the only ones there's more.

You know, if it weren't for dimwits like you, spinmeisters wouldn't have jobs and we might just get the truth. But you'd swallow anything that was positive rather than face the facts. You have NOT been in the trenches with the people getting the dirt under their fingernails battling the problems we're discussing, but I have been there with folks who ARE IN THE KNOW. You are not there. You have not been there. You know nothing!

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

Anita,

One more thing. Your sources...everything's hunky dory? You're talking to the boys at the top most likely if they're west of Pennsyl vania. (I cannot speak to the East Coast... I don't have any first hand knowledge East of Ohio)

It's obvious you don't have any sources in KCP&L who know anything. Meanwhile my post was specific to that company and the news stories should be enought to confirm for you that at least something is not right in that company, even if you don't want to admit its Y2K related.

Furthermore, in most of these companies, there are not that many on a % basis that really are in the know. For damn sure, the boys at the top are NOT in the know...and they don't want to be in the know. It would be hazardous to their health. Meanwhile, you don't have the expertise as a reporter to really do any kind of investigating that gets you to the right people. I do.

I've got more coming up shortly so stick around.

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

R.C:

I'm NOT a reporter, and I'm not being paid by anyone. I've worked on more remediation projects than most here. They all panned out fine.

NEXT?

Anita

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), June 21, 1999.

Willfred,

Do you live near Missouri City, on the North side of Kansas City. I've got a source suspecting that you are referring to a plant along the river there... along Missouri Highway 210?

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

Anita,

You really should consider becoming a spinmeister, you'd like it. You get to dodge and weave and match wits with pandering reporters. It pays well too.

You certainly dodge and weave here. You just dodged and weaved past the facts in my previous post as stated in the News stories cited in regards to KCP&L. They have problems but you'd never admit to that even if a gun was put to your head.

You're not the type to ever admit that you're wrong either. Another good quality trait necessary for a really good spinmeister. But you really ought to consider it.

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

R.C:

Nah...I'd NEVER make it in the lying arena. I had one of those dads who by example made a point of NOT lying. Now that I think about him, he had a way of changing a phrase at the last minute also (if the kids were around.) Dad gummit comes to mind.

Anita

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), June 21, 1999.

Bob,

Let me now turn to Cinergy, which you mentioned in an earlier post. Funny you should mention that company. I have several contacts there, as I used to live in Cinergy land, (so to speak). My sources there have been keeping me posted from the earliest days of my inquiries, in late 1997 and early 1998. In fact, my earliest contacts told me it was no big thing. That changed last year. I was introduced to someone high up in the Y2K remediation program for Cinergy. I will not state if it was an employee or a consultant they have had a lot of both and I've met and talked with bothbut this person is in a position to see and oversee most of the Y2K remediation for Cinergy. He says that things are not hunky dory. There are severe problems and that despite what the company's PR people are saying"they are not stating the truth"though he suspects it technically isn't lying because technically they haven't been told everything. He says that the boys at the top are simply ignoring the facts. It is impossible to test all embedded systems. They're not even sure that they've located all embedded sytems. Furthermore the software patches are "iffy at best." They're still working, and are not sure how long it will take. He expects serious disruptions in the system come Jan 1, 2000. They have also had serious problems in testing and remediation but nothing like KCP&L has had. He does not plan on sticking around either.

Another source is a manager out in the field conducting embedded systems analysis and replacement. He does not have near as much insight, but he says it is a mess and they're not getting everything fixed. They're only getting some of what they've been led to believe are the more critical systems. He says there's not enough time left to get to everything. They are simply too shorthanded to get it all. He says: "we're doing triage" with bandaid approaches. It's all we have time for."

I've got a couple of others who are linemen who tell of some horror stories involved in going out on the lines doing remediation as well. I've not spent quite as much time talking with these fellows though.

Another couple of the programmers I've met who work within Cinergy do not have the whole picture, just pieces of it. They indicate that they don't believe their company will get done in time. They also say that there are a lot of decisions being made that they question the validity ofand they expect a lot of problems in code that has been remediated. They're being forced to move way too fastand in a hurry. It's like no one at the top cares so much that they get it done rightjust get it done.

My main source that I quoted earlier above is the fellow who sees pretty much the whole picture. He can't tell me specific geographic areas that he thinks are more prone than others...he's simply not bothered to even investigate that aspect but he says "there will be significant problems and outages." To quote him verbatim"This company is toast on January first." He's not planning on hanging around either. He's planning on dumping out well before Christmas and heading over the river and through the woods to grandma's farmhouse. He says, "I'm not gonna hang around to watch the blood flow in the streets." Remember, He didnt used to think this way when I first met him. He was a source of reassurance to me that everything was hunky dory. That changed during the holidays last yearas he began to realize that the end of year spin-meistering was a bunch of liesand he figured out that if his company was doing it, so was everyone else. Plus he had been getting contacts from other folks in the biz stating similar experiences In fact he was one of the last of the Pollyannas that I knew that kept me hanging on wondering what the real story was.

So, Bob, you can believe what you wantI could recount similar stories from folks in other companies I've got 3 folks with a power company in the desert southwest that covers several states and large metro areas these folks paint a similar picture Lot's of problems major malfunctionsmuch like KCP&L in fact. One fellow was injured during a test. They've had some serious fires and brownouts as a result of Y2K testing. (My Cinergy people tell me they don't know of one fire or brownout as a result of testing. They say there might have been but they are not aware of it, nor were some in a position to know it unless right there in their own geographical area.) These folks were convinced back in November of 1998 that their company would never make it.

One source told me that the nightmares began for him personally on 9/9/98 he got burned as a result of trying to make a fast fix as their systems went blackout during the day. "The system burned to a crisp" and we were panicking. I don't know what we'd have done if it weren't for the grid, cause our whole company in 3 states went down." He thinks that was just a foretaste of things to come. Since then there have been more problems similar to KCP&Land not just in the hardware but also the softwareagain, too much to do and too little time, too few people. Two other fellows in engineering I spoke with along with the other just mentioned fellow also nodded in agreement and confirmed everything. I saw the fellow's recent scar from the burn that he took. What are they figuring on doing on New Years eve? 2 of the 3 will stick it out on New Year's Eve the third one plans to head for the hills by Christmas and report back only if things turn out to be less severe than he anticipates.

West Coast and Pacific Northwest  a few scattered sources (of varying levels of insight) report that they do not believe their corporate spin-meister's PR statements. Most told me of serious problems they had had with hardware testing in the field, but I've not talked with many of these people for several months now so I don't know what has transpired since. I did get an email from one source in the Pac Northwest who tells me that they've had some transformer fires related to hardware testing but again that was earlier this year in February. He didn't think they'd make it in Western Washington and in Idaho.

The bottom line thread throughout all of this a lot of Corporate "big-shots" are lying through their teeth while others don't know the truth because they refuse to be told the truth. They don't want to know the truth so that they can make statements that will be believable. This is a common thread in both the Oil, Gas, Electric Utility and Phone companies. Yes, I've not really spoken much about the phonesbut again it's much like the power industry contactsserious problems and I've yet to hear from one of more than a dozen source contacts doing remediation in the phone biz who says that they expect to make it. In fact 2 different sources in different companies have stated that within private memo's and communications internally that their top company officials acknowledged in writing (back in January) that they were NOT going to make it and to begin contingency planning to maintain corporate structure as best they can Meanwhile they publicly went out and told the SEC that they were gonna make it just fine. I believe they now claim they are 100% Y2K ready! This was one of the Baby Bell systems.

How long will the charades last? I don't know. I suspect the charades will last until the bitter end for most of the corporate hierarchy, then they'll head for the hills, leaving you poor Pollyannas to be the sap-suckers who become some of the first fatalities of Y2K.

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

...interesting that you cannot substantiate even ONE of your allegations with a name or some third-party concurrence. As it stands, this is no better than "my kids sitter has a friend who know someone..." nonsense.

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), June 21, 1999.

It would be most interesting if R.C. posted this stuff over on the EUY2K forum. I wonder if he will?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 21, 1999.

Thank you, Sir. You know....I sobbed the whole day when John Wayne died, and I don't give a damn who knows it, either. He had invited my brother, sister and me to join him at his table for dessert once, at the Holiday Inn dining room in Casper WY, during the shooting of, "The Hell Fighters". He was NOT just an *actor*. He was an American. I too, have a son named Ethan. I happen to know for a fact, that he would be proud to allow you, sir, to use his 'handle'. Where have the Americans gone? If we don't start acting like Americans......we'll be toast WITHOUT Y2K.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 21, 1999.

Y2K Pro,

You're wrong, this is a LOT better than any run of the mill allegations. But heck, who are you and who are your sources and who do they work for? You don't give out any better information. Names like CL, Dan the Power Man, Engineer, aren't providing us with any hard evidence on their side. I know you hate the bad information, but get used to it. There's a whole lot more coming at you, starting with the Federal Govt. Too bad for you. You're in for a heavy "shock" and some serious "burns" yourself.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), June 21, 1999.

R.C.: Thanks and keep up the good work.

Boy, I tell ya, this place just isn't the same since the pollys "took it over"

ROTFLMAO

Flint, how's that crow? LOL

-- a (a@a.a), June 21, 1999.

This is what passes for "independent verification" You all remember the C4I debacle, don't you.

-- newlurker (bcobur@yahoo.com), June 21, 1999.

Who the hell said it was a debacle? Keep "moooooing" though, you're bound to finally find a Bull in the herd of Steers sooner or later!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 21, 1999.

newlurker: the C4I debacle (and I still think it's trickery) may turn out to have many more kernels of truth than we're ready for... or are, literally, prepared for.....

The post came out just prior to many C4I employees making the Y2K news....

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), June 21, 1999.

Since RC is well connected and since we know that Y2k readiness is a mixed bag, I'm sure that RC can provide us with some information on utility companies that are doing a good job at getting ready. That, too, would be helpful.

-- Yep (yougotth@right.com), June 21, 1999.

Just an update: I spoke with John Carras of the Kansas City Kansan this morning about the de-commissioned power plant in my neighborhood. He indicated that they were indeed bringing it back up into operation. When I asked him why, he transferred me to the reporter that routinely covers the Board of Public Utilities, Carmen Cardinal. Carmen told me they had run a story 4 - 6 weeks or so ago about this. Obviously, I had not seen the article.

As I had mentioned in my first response to this post, the BPU had decided to decommission this plant for economic reasons; they felt they could buy their power cheaper than they could generate their own. Carmen told me that the BPU had 're-evaluated' their position, and they think they can generate power cheaper themselves, and may have some other customers to also sell it to. (?KCP&L?)

I told her I was aware that KCP&L had been having problems; she said she thought the Hawthorn power plant explosion probably was a factor in the BPU's decision to bring this plant back up. BTW, the plant in KCKS I've seen operating again is the Kaw Power Station.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), June 21, 1999.

What a bunch of Bullshit! "My babysitters friend" is taken as fact, "RC" spews complete and TOTAL Bullshit all over the thread, and the little know-nothing doomidiots all chime in with "hows the crow"?

You stupid motherfuckers are gonna be eating the mother of all crows come January

Super Polly, who just might have planted the C4i scam that the doomidiots swallowed hole.

-- Super Polly (Fu_Q_y2kfreaks@hotmail.com), June 21, 1999.

Hey Super - you forgot to mention RC's oil & gas thread! HTH...

BTW...how'd you c4i's .mil address? Been hacking those DoD systems? Bad boy!

-- a (a@a.a), June 21, 1999.

RC:

Your assertion about the EUY2K forum is only partially correct. They do have a "industry-only" forum, but they also have a "open" forum where Joe Sixpack can post questions. Quite a few people who work in the industry take the time to answer questions posted there. (Look for names like FactFinder, CL, The Engineer, Dan-the-Power-Man, Art etc., and also Rick Cowles himself.)

If you want to have *any* credibility with the non-hardcore-doomer types here you'll cross-post to the EUY2K open forum and let your allegations be looked over by some "guys in the field".

By the way, here's the URL:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Electric% 20Utilities%20and%20Y2K

-- Johnny Canuck (nospam@eh.com), June 21, 1999.

It's always interesting to watch the pollys squirm and spout when an item of substance is posted.

-- methinks (thoudoth@protest.toomuch), June 21, 1999.

R.C.,

When are you going to "spill" the beans on Telecomm Industry? I will be interested in your post and the facts you use to back up your assertions. Have worked in the Telecomm Industry (read Ericsson, Inc - Supplier of 67% Wireline/Wireless Networks in the World, WilTel, and Lucent Labs) for the past 12 yrs as a Systems Engineer and Designer. It will be interesting to contrast your statements with my experiences, knowledge and reports from colleagues at competitors.

-- paul dirac (pdirac@hotmail.com), June 21, 1999.

Is that heavy panting I hear?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 21, 1999.

Methinks wrote: "It's always interesting to watch the pollys squirm and spout when an item of substance is posted."

Ummmmmmm....so far RC hasn't posted much more than hearsay, second- hand evidence and conjecture. Maybe you can point to the parts of his allegations that contain substance.

And why are pollys being accused of "squirming" when they ask a poster to provide a little back-up to his allegations and also to cross-post those allegations to a forum which specializes in debate about the electricity industry?

-- Johnny Canuck (nospam@eh.com), June 21, 1999.

To Y2K Pro...

You stated: ...interesting that you cannot substantiate even ONE of your allegations with a name or some third-party concurrence. As it stands, this is no better than "my kids sitter has a friend who know someone..." nonsense. -- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), June 21, 1999.

Well pardner... I just listed in that post a ton of Kansas City Star newspaper stories documenting all the serious and nearly unprecendented mishaps that has befallen KCP&L in the last 12 months but particularly so, this year. I then cited KCTV's news story regarding KCP&L and the claims of a major steel company. This company is getting ready to sue KCP&L for its nearly 2 dozen outages since it began Y2K remediation in the past year.

SOMEONE HERE DIDN'T BOTHER TO READ THE REPORTS. IF THAT IS NOT ENOUGH DOCUMENTATION FOR YOU, THEN...I DOUBT SWORN AFFADAVITS BY THE COMPANY REAFFIRMING MY POINTS WOULD MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE TO YOU...YOU'D LOOK FOR SOME OTHER EXCUSE. FACT IS...UNTIL 1/1/2000 WHEN THE LIGHTS GO OUT YOU WON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING. CHANCES ARE, IF YOU'D BEEN AROUND YOU'D HAVE CALLED PAUL REVERE A LIAR ALSO.

How might you react to old Paul Revere? Let's see...

"British are coming? Nahhh. I want demonstrated verifiable proof that they're coming. I want it in writing and notarized from the British themselves. Otherwise it is no different than hearing it from my baby sitter, which has no credence whatsoever."

I suppose also that if your Babysitter told you that a tornado was coming around the corner you wouldn't believe her either.

Well Pardner, you're likely gonna be one the first ones to die in this mess. Enjoy life while you can, I suppose...or else make amends with your maker.

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

RC:

About the EUY2K.com open forum...........are you going to post your allegations there?

-- Johnny Canuck (nospam@eh.com), June 21, 1999.

To Johnny Canuck,

First of all, I posted multiples of articles from the Kansas City Star newspaper, that city's newspaper of record, regarding all the various mishaps of KCP&L. Furthermore I pasted in the comments from the CBS TV station affiliate in K.C. that specifically addressed this very subject. This was not hearsay. Let me remind you that TV stations which broadcast false and damaging statements can not only get sued but lose their licenses. Trust me on this one...if KCTV had broadcast something false, KCP&L would have had them in court so fast it would make heads swim.

I can only point you to the truth, but I can't make you drink it. Obviously you didn't bother to read the facts from others, now did you?

Why do I bother? Why should I bother responding to another forum? I don't have the time to keep up with this one let alone anymore. If it is so important to you... paste and post it over there. I don't care... just don't take it out of context...post it all...the whole thread. OR... They can come over here.

I'm not out to convince the world. I'm simply relating the facts as I am presented with them. Skepticism of 2nd hand information is one thing, outright blatant rejection on the basis that it is impossible is the kind of thing that gets people killed in times of crisis, especially on battlefields. What's coming may be no different.

This is not a game folks, this is life...and death. Get a grip on it. Don't do the "Chicken Little Panic" and don't compete for the Alfred E Neuman ('What? Me no worry') Insane Denial award. Both are known to be fatal.

What amazes me is that yes, there are serious problems out there and many of you wish to compete for the Alfred E. Neuman memorial trophy for insane denial, to your own peril...and then try to ridicule, belittle and destroy those who think otherwise. Yes, it's just amazing.

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

RC:

Maybe I need to be a bit more specific about the allegations that should be aired over at EUY2K.com.

These snips are taken from one of your postings above in this thread. They are not from the articles you quoted - they were directly written by you.

[snip]

Regarding the Kansas City Power & Light Company situation. I have sources that tell me a grim picture for the electrical situation in Kansas City.

[snip]

Guess what? These guys...I have 5 direct personal company sources on this...are reflective of sources I've encountered in other power companies across much of the middle and western parts of the USA. They all are telling similar stories regarding actions by top management.

[snip]

Now on to documented facts. There was a Power Plant explosion of an older KCP&L facility in the metro section of Kansas City. This was their Hawthorn plant, of which part of the system had already been idled for some time. Y2K remediation efforts have been ongoing. My engineer sources within that firm indicate that while the company publicly refuses to admit the blast was Y2K related, the boys in field know otherwise.

[snip]

Furthermore, embedded systems remediation is a disaster, (like with so many other power companies) these guys tell me, that their company isn't even gonna come close to actually and literally testing all the embedded systems. In fact they keep discovering new ones they didn't have on the inventory.

[End snips]

This last one is what really stains your credibility in my book. I'm a regular reader at EUY2K.com and what you say *directly contradicts* postings by engineers in the industry who are doing embedded testing. If you think I'm full of crap, then all you have to do is post at EUY2K and wait for all those engineers to prove you right and me wrong.

[I don't have a gauntlet but if I did, consider it thrown.]

-- Johnny Canuck (nospam@eh.com), June 21, 1999.

Are THEY suffering from 'denial' too, Johnny? Pitiful. What IS their theory on embedded systems, anyway? I suspect *this* issue is being spun as feverishly as the spin concerning the banking industries..."Don't panic, don't panic, it's under control"! As a matter of fact, I believe R.C. just made that point, if I'm not mistaken. Don't go looking for food from ANYBODY with kids, Johnny, that would be a huge mistake. If it was just me and hubby...I might consider 'sharing'. But I'll stop you dead in your tracks before I share my children's food with you. Get a grip.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 21, 1999.

To all the Pollys who didn't bother to read the facts...

"One more time and with feeling"

Let me restate the KCTV-5 "Call for Action" summary of their multiple part investigative series on KCP&L controversy with GST Steel Co.http://www.kctv.com/

CALL FOR ACTION Internet Newsletter May 13, 1999 ------------------ TODAY'S TOPICS EXPLOSION AT HAWTHORN PLANT Y2K SCAM INTERNET SERVICE TROUBLE RECALLS NORTHLAND DEALERSHIP PROBLEMS ---------------- EXPLOSION AT HAWTHORN PLANT

The GST Steel company in the northeast part of town spends millions each year for electricity to make steel wire and rods. Last year the company says it had to spend an extra half million dollars because KCPL's power to the plant was unreliable and halted production 14 times. GST also claims the utility has maintenance problems all over the city.

We obtained records GST filed with the Missouri Public Service Commission, which regulates utilities. In them, GST claims "reliability problems encompass KCPL's entire system," and "leaves in doubt," KCPL's ability to meet the needs of customers. GST says there were 26 unplanned outages at KCPL plants like this during four months of last year, and "no generating unit" operated everyday for a full month. GST claims KCPL has cut back on maintenance, spending about 12% less than it did four years ago. The steel company says KCPL "cannot be permitted to allow the reliability of its system to deteriorate."

We also learned GST claims February's explosion at the Hawthorn plant was, "the culmination of the increasingly erratic and unreliable operation of the KCPL system." The company says KCPL plans to charge it millions more for electricity because of that explosion, and that will have dire consequences. GST says the added costs, KCPL's poor maintenance, and tough competition in the steel industry have created an "emergency" and placed the steel company in a "precarious situation." GST says the problems may force it to close the plant, which employs 834 people, with a payroll of $66 million. GST asked the public service commission to stop KCPL from raising its rates and to investigate the utility's "deteriorating system."

KCPL calls the allegations unsupported speculation and innuendo. In a written statement KCPL says is "consistently ranks better than national industry averages" in the number and length of outages. The company adds: "We are confident that our record of performance speaks for itself." KCPL also says some of the power failures at the steel plant were caused by GST's equipment and problems at another plant. The company claims GST made the allegations to force it to reduce the steel company's rates; rates KCPL says are a bargain. That bargain will continue KCPL says, even if GST has to pay more because of the Hawthorn Explosion.

The staff of the public service commission says: "To date it sees no reason to conduct a special review" of KCPL's maintenance, and the commission recently decided not to investigate. The commission says GST improperly filed the complaint and if it wants the allegations investigated it should re-file the complaint. GST told us they may do just that, because they think the facts are substantial to back up the allegations."

Now, let's isolate and note the key statements that support my own sources claims in the prior posts above:

[keep in mind that KCTV-5 based these statements upon the following criteria: "We obtained records GST filed with the Missouri Public Service Commission, which regulates utilities."

#1. KCPL's power to the plant was unreliable and halted production 14 times.

This is not me stating this...this is GST Corp. See the above link to KCTV's website for verification.

GST claims it's power was interrupted 14 times halting its production.

#2. "GST also claims the utility has maintenance problems all over the city."

Again, this is not me stating this. This is KCTV-5 stating the claims made in an affadavit to the State of Missouri Utility commission.

#3. "GST claims "reliability problems encompass KCPL's entire system," and "leaves in doubt," KCPL's ability to meet the needs of customers"

Again... I didn't state this...GST Steel Co. has stated it.

#4. "GST says there were 26 unplanned outages at KCPL plants like this during four months of last year," ...

Again... I didn't state this... GST Steel Co. has stated it.

#5. "and "no generating unit" operated everyday for a full month."

Again... I didn't state this...GST Steel has stated it... #6. "The steel company says KCPL "cannot be permitted to allow the reliability of its system to deteriorate."

Again... I didn't state this... GST Steel has stated it...

#7. "GST claims February's explosion at the Hawthorn plant was, "the culmination of the increasingly erratic and unreliable operation of the KCPL system."

Again... I didn't state it... GST Steel Co. stated it...

#8. "GST says the added costs, KCPL's poor maintenance, and tough competition in the steel industry have created an "emergency" and placed the steel company in a "precarious situation." GST says the problems may force it to close the plant, which employs 834 people, with a payroll of $66 million."

Again... I didn't state this... GST Steel has stated all of this in filed affadavits with the State of Missouri. The Utilities Commission is a political animal and initially turned down GST's request for a hearing...on technical, legal grounds involving due process. The issue has now been refiled...and GST is reportedly weighing its options for a massive lawsuit.

My point in all of this?????? HEY IDIOTS... These allegations are made by sources other than mine...they are saying the same thing... only they are not publicly linking it to Y2K. It's funny but that all of a sudden with Y2K testing having gone into full swing that suddenly KCP&L can't seem to do anything right. Things are blowing up and catching fire all over the place. Far beyond the norm.

Go back to my original post and see the KC Star article where one safety group expresses concern about KCP&L after the plant explosion in Kansas City and a similar one in Michigan.

These are but 2 of 6 power plant explosions that have occured in the US in the past year. Nobody wants to talk about this unprecendented spate of explosions and the coincidences to Y2K testing. Coincidences? If you believe they are all coincidences...I've got a Bridge in Brooklyn you might wanna buy...or how about some prime swampland property in Florida?

Face the facts folks...You are being lied to by the Electric Industry just like the Oil industry has been lying to you.

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

Wow! Will Continue really hit me with a zap of logic there!

A non-hardcore-doomer (I'm not calling myself a polly) asks that a poster who makes rather serious allegations about the electricity industry back up his claims and also that he air his claims in a forum more appropriate to the subject area. Doom chorus (in the form of you) then chimes with that those old doomer standbys that those who are actually doing the work are "spinning" and that they are in "denial". [Let's leave aside the notion that it may not be possible to be both spinning AND in denial.] No actual debate about the merits of RC's allegations (those that are the subject of discussion) occurs.

Will Continue asks "What IS their [presumably the utility engineers] theory on embedded systems, anyway?". If you've read any of Dan the Power Man's posts here you would know it is pretty clear. You could also check out the archives at EUY2K.com as well (search using "emdedded"). To paraphrase (as best I can) what these guys are saying: "The embedded systems issue has proved to be much less of a concern than initially thought 12-18 months ago. There have been very few instances of devices failing during roll-over testing, and most of those failures would have resulted in "cosmetic" errors rather than total unit failure."

Will Continue then urges that I shouldn't "go looking for food from ANYBODY with kids, Johnny, that would be a huge mistake. If it was just me and hubby...I might consider 'sharing'. But I'll stop you dead in your tracks before I share my children's food with you. Get a grip."

Well...another interesting leap in logic there. I question some allegations that the doomer chorus seem to take as gospel; therefore I must be some sort of simple-minded polly; therefore I won't be doing any preparation; therefore when TSHTF I will need to find food.

Leaving aside Will Continue's illogical musings, the bottom line is that the onus is on RC to provide back-up for his allegations.

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), June 21, 1999.

Johnny,

You have them...you simply refuse to acknowledge them... I brought out a few of them again from a previous post...in case you missed them.

The GST Steel Co. has made much the same allegations...and these are a matter of public record. I posted the summary supplied by the local CBS TV affiliate KCTV-5 and their investigative unit "Call for Action" which aired multiple reports on this running story.

If that is not enough documentation for you...then NOTHING IS.

I'm tire of wasting my time with dolts like yourself. Wake up or get out of town. You can't seem to grasp the meaning of words that might just upset your paradigm.

Meanwhile I've got better things to do with my time.

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), June 21, 1999.

RC:

The articles you posted don't offer much in the way of "proof" that KCP&L is in Y2K trouble. They certainly don't prove any of the allegations of yours that I excerpted in a post 4 or 5 posts above this one.

With regard to GST, here is the article you cut and pasted about them and KCP&L:

[snip]

http://www.kctv.com/ CALL FOR ACTION Internet Newsletter May 13, 1999 ------------------ TODAY'S TOPICS EXPLOSION AT HAWTHORN PLANT Y2K SCAM INTERNET SERVICE TROUBLE RECALLS NORTHLAND DEALERSHIP PROBLEMS ---------------- EXPLOSION AT HAWTHORN PLANT The GST Steel company in the northeast part of town spends millions each year for electricity to make steel wire and rods. Last year the company says it had to spend an extra half million dollars because KCPL's power to the plant was unreliable and halted production 14 times. GST also claims the utility has maintenance problems all over the city.

We obtained records GST filed with the Missouri Public Service Commission, which regulates utilities. In them, GST claims "reliability problems encompass KCPL's entire system," and "leaves in doubt," KCPL's ability to meet the needs of customers. GST says there were 26 unplanned outages at KCPL plants like this during four months of last year, and "no generating unit" operated everyday for a full month. GST claims KCPL has cut back on maintenance, spending about 12% less than it did four years ago. The steel company says KCPL "cannot be permitted to allow the reliability of its system to deteriorate."

We also learned GST claims February's explosion at the Hawthorn plant was, "the culmination of the increasingly erratic and unreliable operation of the KCPL system." The company says KCPL plans to charge it millions more for electricity because of that explosion, and that will have dire consequences. GST says the added costs, KCPL's poor maintenance, and tough competition in the steel industry have created an "emergency" and placed the steel company in a "precarious situation." GST says the problems may force it to close the plant, which employs 834 people, with a payroll of $66 million. GST asked the public service commission to stop KCPL from raising its rates and to investigate the utility's "deteriorating system."

KCPL calls the allegations unsupported speculation and innuendo. In a written statement KCPL says is "consistently ranks better than national industry averages" in the number and length of outages. The company adds: "We are confident that our record of performance speaks for itself." KCPL also says some of the power failures at the steel plant were caused by GST's equipment and problems at another plant. The company claims GST made the allegations to force it to reduce the steel company's rates; rates KCPL says are a bargain. That bargain will continue KCPL says, even if GST has to pay more because of the Hawthorn Explosion.

The staff of the public service commission says: "To date it sees no reason to conduct a special review" of KCPL's maintenance, and the commission recently decided not to investigate. The commission says GST improperly filed the complaint and if it wants the allegations investigated it should re-file the complaint. GST told us they may do just that, because they think the facts are substantial to back up the allegations."

[end snip]

You have inferred Y2K problems from an article that is based on a so- far unsubstianiated claim of erratic power supply from 1 of KCP&L's customers. How to go from A to Z in one easy step.

The Doom Chorus may give credence to your allegations, but the rest of us insist that the bar be kept a little higher. Before he was accepted (by some of the more doom-inclined) as legit, Dan the Power Man had to prove his bona fides to a "neutral observer" (in his case, Mr Parkhill kindly performed the task). Maybe you'd like to do the same - you could start with verifying your claim that you have experience at "the Presidential level on the traveling White House staff." We could then move on to the electricity industry issues.

Or does proving one's bona fides only apply to pollys?

Johnny

(PS - it would be helpful to refrain from personal attacks ["dolt" etc.]. They don't add anything to the discussion.)

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), June 21, 1999.

While all of this commentary is interesting, I find that it is held together with the author's own opinion. Taken by themselves, these media reports wouldn't establish any substantial evidence that y2k would be worse than is being reported. However, when all the 2nd hand opinions and unidentified sources are added, it certainly gives it that 'doom and gloom' flavor. I wouldn't buy this from the pollys and to be fair, I don't buy it from youi either, RC. Why don't you offer some suggestions and questions for participants here to ask their own utility personnel? Specify which personnel, if you think we can get a better answer from someone in a certain position. Let's see if anyone else can corraborate your sources....

-- Tailgunner (tailgunner@hotmail.com), June 21, 1999.

Face it. You guys don't want to know. You know they have NO intention of spilling the beans in the utility companies or any other industry. Why should they? They have a country full of helpless 'sheeple' that will swallow anything they say or don't say. You are the proof of that. "Unless you 'proove' it to me, I'll just keep swallowing". People just aren't able to think for themselves. You are willing to bet your country on the opinions of Dan the Power man. Why not Mr. Rogers? Oh yea, Mister Rogers ISN'T an engineer. The 'experts' know. They know everything, they helped get us INTO this mess after all, surely they can get us out again, even though they started too late, and are now out of time. They're 'experts'. Big corporation would NEVER lie, and the government has ALWAYS been truthful, right? Fools

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 21, 1999.

RC:

Your descriptions sound convincing, your documentation is very good, and in a vacuum this would be great stuff. Clearly KCP&L has had some problems in the past. Your documented sources indicate that they've suffered from antiquated equipment, they have at least one unhappy customer, and they've suffered serious power failures (a canceled baseball game is catastrophic in my book).

However, none of your documentation associates y2k issues with KCP&L's generation/distrubution problems directly. And all power companies have suffered problems at one time or another, perhaps less frequent and serious than KCP&L, perhaps not. OK, they have a checkered past, as many do.

The y2k allegations you make are quite different. These are all anonymous sources with drastically pessimistic viewpoints. And while I agree that your disinclination to speak of regions where you have no contacts lends verisimilitude, the fact remains that the picture you paint lies in flat contradiction to ALL sources we've seen so far. Even ignoring possibly self-serving and mendacious claims by power suppliers (like Cinergy), even as pessimistic an observer as Rick Cowles (who is *selling* remediation service) doesn't describe anything anywhere near so dire. Certainly your anonymous sources don't resemble the likes of Engineer and Dan the Power Man, whose bona fides have been established to our satisfaction.

In short, you are making what we must view as an extraordinary claim. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (at least to all but the most blindly devout). Unconfirmable second-hand (or more) tales from unnamed allegedly worried people do not constitute extraordinary evidence.

At the very least, I again encourage you to post these claims on the EUY2K forum at:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Electric% 20Utilities%20and%20Y2K

and we'll all eagerly anticipate the response. Until this happens, your credibility is simply not sufficient.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 21, 1999.

What I want to know is how can somebody that rides motorcycles use words like "verisimilitude" :)

-- a (a@a.a), June 21, 1999.

Thank you Flint for driving my point home. Flint's going to nominate 'Dan' for President in 2000.

-- will continue (farming@home.com), June 21, 1999.

'a':

Been a Harley rider for a couple of dogs' ages. You want bias, ask me about Harleys. If you ain't been on one, you ain't lived a full life, and that's no bull. If 2yk comes down hard on me, I know what I'm going to save. My wife might take care of the rest, but chances are she'll hop on. She's been there a lot, and she knows.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 21, 1999.

Flint: avoid "The Eagle's Nest" in Cheyenne, WY if you ever head up to Sturgis. If you do insist on dropping in....curtail conversation at all costs. Health reasons my man.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 21, 1999.

When I read the forum and get a virtual whiplash from 'ping ponging' back and forth from those who advocate preparation and being aware versus those who take a more polly position, I'm reminded of my childhood. I'm sure we all went to school with at least 1 person who would argue about anything, just for the sheer exercise, just to hear themselves talk. Had to be right about everything. Never wrong about anything. Some were quite 'learned', and as such, initially other people paid attention to them, until it was obvious to most what they were doing -- Arguing for the sake of argument. Arguing because they *had* to be right, usually to support an untenable position. (Heck, for that matter, we all probably work or live with some of those people now).

I would like to know what SPECIFIC evidence *would* be acceptable -- that is, accepted as incontrovertible evidence. What, exactly, specifically, would convince *You* that what RC has said was true. Be specific. I'd *really* like to know. Oh, and BTW -- "Official" statements coming from the company/industry are *not* allowed. WHY? Because it's just 'official heresay'. I've been in business long enough to know that what's on the 'official' reports/PR pieces isn't always the real story. And....I'm not interested in the linguistic exercises needed to 'decipher' the language used in many 'official' documents, ie., I'm not interested in spending time trying to ascertain the definition of "is". Some people lie when they feel they have a good reason to lie. Companies and people alike. I understand the reasons why a company would lie about something like this; what would be the motivation for this guy to lie?

Now mind you, I've lived in the Midwest most all of my life, and can spot a BSer at 20 yards. I've gotten by quite nicely by listening, observing, reading EVERYTHING there is to be had on a subject and then making up my own mind. In other words: If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, 'smells' like a duck....it's usually a duck! There are some that will argue that it is a 'two-legged amphibious fowl' just for the sake of being "technically right". More power to 'em, I suppose. To me, it just makes them look incredibly silly. Although, I'm generally happy when people like that *expose* themselves that way; gives me a 'heads up' that they're generally an idiot, or not to be trusted. Or both.

-- Openyoureyes (use@your.head), June 22, 1999.

Thank GOD for sanity! Yesterday...Greybear stated...."Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience". One of the most 'brilliant' statements I've heard in a long, long time. If I argue with the educated idiots...they will be left with no choice but to point out my lack of formal education, they beat me with their "idiot savant" experience. Thank the Lord, somebody else has noticed this. I hope you're in Kansas, that's all I can say!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 22, 1999.

What this discussion (and others similar to it) shows me is this: Some individuals simply do not have either 1) the critical reasoning skills or capability necessary to sort through information and make a 'reasonable' assumption OR 2) they've never, ever been in a situation when they've been lied to by an 'authority figure', had 'real life' experience and knowledge and a reason to highly suspect they were being lied to or mis-directed on purpose, and found out later that they were *right* about the lies being told.

Now, how many of the pollyannas can honestly claim to be in the latter category? I *thought* so. So, what does that leave? The first category: the people who *must* have an independently audited, registered, certified, 24kt gold engraved "Seal of Authenticity" from a :::ahem::: 'Reputable' source before they will believe anything.

I can't imagine why some are so dense about why people 'in the know' -- in the trenches, if you will -- are reluctant to divulge and *really* tell the truth. I personally don't know of one (1) person who works for "emotional fulfillment". No one I know of can afford the luxury of 'telling it like it really is in the workplace', do you? Could you afford yourself the expense of being out of work, perhaps ostrasized for your career lifetime in your industry because of something you said that was true, but mighty unpopular with the company? Would you do this, even if you knew something was *seriously* wrong? I highly doubt it. Not many of us are prepared to risk everything for themselves and others. So the employee speaks up and talks to people, maybe a few, maybe a lot, maybe those in positions to bring light to the problems. One or two people making these sounds might be disgruntled. More of them speaking *off the record* tells a different story. When there are corroborating public events to back these people up, can you still, with a straight face, claim that these people are making this up? Perhaps they're a little 'over-board'. Perhaps they're mistaken. Perhaps they're just not working hard enough and need a little entertainment. Or perhaps they're RIGHT.

Some criminals *are* justly convicted on 'circumstantial' and 'heresay' evidence; others *are* wrongly acquitted by virtue of bogus alibis, or 'skillful' legal maneuvering.

Use your brain. There is a preponderance of evidence.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), June 22, 1999.

Flint:

I'm a registered, certified doomer, but I agree with you on this one. He said, she said just doesn't get it done. I've been posting off and on for almost a year and the great difference between this forum now and this forum then is the quality (or lack of) arguing (debating?) skills.

Now I can't speak to the efficacy of the Harley experience, but my Dad would say you know not of what you speak. Indian, my man, Indian.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), June 22, 1999.

To all those who think that RC's claims require no further "proof" beyond what he has already posted:

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think that he has provided enough evidence to back up the claims of his anonymous "sources". Clearly you feel he has. So be it - I'm not going to convince you of my position and you are not going to convince me of yours.

IMO RC was a doomer troll. But again, that is only my opinion.

By the way, someone (not RC - unless he posted it under a different handle) has posted part of RC's allegations - the bit about GST Steel - to EUY2K. Here's the URL:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000zAg

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), June 22, 1999.

Vic,

Good grief, man, just listen to ya'!

"My Dad would say you know not of what you speak".

I dunno, pal....sounds a lot like second or third hand information to me. Sounds A LOT like 'he said she said' to me.

So you're telling us that you want us to believe your Dad is an unimpeachable, credible source?

PROVE it.

-- How is (this@any.different), June 22, 1999.

Well, let's see, How. Dad'll be 80 Aug. 15; he's been riding motorcycles since he was a teenager. Hill climbs, cross country. Still rides, matter of fact. My uncle--his brother--owned the Indian dealership in Dallas for many years. Dad has also owned a Honda, a Zundapp (sp?), a Suzuki, a Vincent ... probably some others I don't even know about. He knows motorcycles. If Einstein told me that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared, I'd believe him. If my Dad tells me that an Indian was a better motorcycle than a Harley, I believe him. It's called empirical evidence. Enough of this silliness.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), June 22, 1999.

I want to know why Will is not embaredassed by stating things as inane as this: "Face it. You guys don't want to know. You know they have NO intention of spilling the beans in the utility companies or any other industry." Spilling the beans? Which beans would that be? the good beans or bad beans. Now how do you know how the industry is doing when you have no data. How do you draw your conclusions that you won't have food based on no data?

"Why should they? They have a country full of helpless 'sheeple' that will swallow anything they say or don't say. You are the proof of that. "Unless you 'proove' it to me, I'll just keep swallowing"." Then you go on to spout how the rest of us swallow what they say. So even if the industry says something you won't believe them. Still based on no data you will conclude that they don't know what's going on and you do.

"People just aren't able to think for themselves." Yet you are. My, you're so full of shit, the "whites" of your eyes must be brown.

"You are willing to bet your country on the opinions of Dan the Power man. Why not Mr. Rogers? Oh yea, Mister Rogers ISN'T an engineer. The 'experts' know." You criticize someone for agreeing with Dan the Power Man and yet you find it perfectly OK for you to agree with Ed Yourdon or whomever. What makes your "experts" better than anyone's?

"They know everything, they helped get us INTO this mess after all, surely they can get us out again, even though they started too late, and are now out of time. They're 'experts'." So you placed this mess on "they" Are you that helpless that you have to blame some "they" for this "mess"? What? too big for that little brain of yours to comprehend this "mess", so you have to humanize it somehow? News flash the "they" doesn't exist.

"Big corporation would NEVER lie, and the government has ALWAYS been truthful, right? Fools" Of course corporations lie. This is nothing new and yet you seem to think it only applies to Y2K. Corp america trys to sell you something every day. Oh little one try to think for yourself (which you claim you can do). You bought into this "mess" lock stock and barrel.

-- Some doomers (are@morestupid.thanothers), June 22, 1999.

One other thing. Will, we have heard this kind of ranting on numerous other occasions. Try to be a little more original next time.

-- Some doomers (are@morestupid.thanothers), June 22, 1999.

Vic,

Oooooohh...I *see*....

Let me get this straight:

Your Dad has a number of years of experience riding motorcycles, and is partial to the Indian. His brother also has a number of years of experience with them, too. (More than 'most' people have). You *trust* what your Dad has to say about these machines because you feel he has considerable industry knowledge, and personal first hand experience, corroborated by his brother, who is also somewhat of an 'industry' expert. Am I right? Let me continue. You *believe* what he tells you of his "opinion" of this certain motorcycle because you trust him; you have no prior experience of him deliberately misleading you, right?

Now....Why is *this* any different than what RC's sources told him?

It's your Dad's opinion that Indian scooters are the *best*.

It's RC's opinion (drawn from his trusted sources) that KCP&L is hosed.

Both opinions are based on the same type of information.(Considerable first hand experience and trusted industry insider sources).

Are you now going to claim that "My Dad can beat up your Dad because I *said* so"?

If you are going to use the 'empirical evidence' defense, you have to apply it equally across the board.

-- Youleft (yourself@wide.open), June 22, 1999.

Isn't it hard to eat with that hook in your mouth?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 22, 1999.

Youleft wrote:

"It's your Dad's opinion that Indian scooters are the *best*.

It's RC's opinion (drawn from his trusted sources) that KCP&L is hosed.

Both opinions are based on the same type of information.(Considerable first hand experience and trusted industry insider sources)."

I think this is an apples and oranges comparison. There is rather a large difference in the "due diligence" required when evaluating the credibility of a person opining about the qualities of a motorcycle versus evaluating the credibility of a person who is making sweeping statements about whether an electrical utility is going to be Y2K ready in time.

It is also interesting to note that Youleft is automatically assuming that RC is legit. How one can assume that an anonymous poster who has dodged backing up any of the extraordinary claims from his "sources" (embedded systems remediation is a mess etc.) is reliable is beyond me. Dan the Power Man proved his bona fides without compromising his anonymity in the forum. RC could do the same....if he chose to.

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), June 22, 1999.

I just hate it when irony is wasted.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), June 22, 1999.

Vic -

I think this forum's irony-detector has been malfunctioning for a while.

Johnny

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), June 22, 1999.

So....we have to 'take your word on it' that your Dad is legit, too, huh? We're taking this from an anonymous poster, too, right?

Ok, fine. Whatever you say.

-- Dad,I (can't@chew.this), June 22, 1999.