I saw this today, and it reminded me about dad's greatest concern - frozen & busted pipes.

The city guy spent a long time talking about protecting your pipes when the power is out, (windex in the bowl and empty the tank). http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000szQ

Parents have 2 wood-burning fireplaces in the house. About 10 yrs ago dad converted them to gas. He has no plans to change back, and isn't planning on doing anything - at this point in time - for an alternative source of heat:-((

Mom's a GI. Dad's a DGI. She has to sneak & hide food, etc. Maybe dad's becoming a GI, but is afraid to face up to it fully. The fact that he's worried about pipes tells me he IS starting to get concerned.

In any event, assuming no electricity AND no running water. Usual advice re keeping a trickle of cold water won't work.

Any suggestions?

FYI: Roleigh Martin published this: "FEMA publishes inaccurate and potentially dangerous information for the Northern States" - http://www.northern-survival.com/

The guidelines published by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) will not protect you if you live in the north. FEMA advises that pipes be covered with newspaper or other insulation to prevent them from freezing. If pipes do freeze FEMA advises wrapping them with rags.

See http://www.fema.gov/library/stormsf.htm - If pipes freeze they will no doubt split, and the "between the walls" location of most plumbing will prevent you from even knowing it. If you follow these instructions, it will cost thousands of dollars to fix the plumbing, dry wall, and insulation in your home.

When the heat is returned to your home and the water is turned on, the between the walls cavities will fill with water, damaging the plaster board. Plaster board on the wall and ceiling will collapse, and everything will be covered with water, insulation, and gypsum. You will have to shut off the water and go without water until the repairs are complete, which may be weeks if your neighbors have followed FEMA's instructions and are needing those same repair men.

One of many sites I found regarding usual advice: http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/newsreleases/NRfrozenpipes.html

But, this has the potential to be a unique situation. I'm suprised (after the ice-storm in Canada last year) - that I couldn't find a solution. Is there any??

-- Cheryl (Transplant@Oregon.com), May 29, 1999

Answers

SOME POWER-FUL SOLUTIONS

  A MINI-GUIDE FOR DEALING WITH  WINTER POWER OUTAGES

http://www.safeguard.ca/english/publications/winpower.html

Cheryl

 The above site is the best I have seen on the subject of power outages and winter conditions (It is from Quebec). Unfortunately if there is no heat then there is little you can do but drain the pipes and water heater ect. I worry allot being a Canadian and having been there and done that in the arctic. The best idea is to buy a second hand woodstove to reconnect if there is a gas outage. If the power is still up one can use "Heat tape" to warm the pipes.

You are right that there is little on the net about dealling with the cold during a power failure. It doesn't take long to cool down a house and even less time in a trailer during a cold snap with no heat. This is one of the reasons I am on the net about the Y2K issue.
Here is a link to some comments of mine on the cold

 Chop wood haul water
http://www.ampsc.com/~imager/Chopwater/chopwater.html

Good luck!

-- Brian (imager@home.com), May 29, 1999.

Just a thought about sub-zero effects. The system of keeping a home heated with a fan driven natural gas furnace is very vulnerable. One power spike can burn out the furnace fan and bang! your frozen even if the gas and power stay on. Got a back-up motor and/or power conditioner?

-- Will (sibola@hotmail.com), May 29, 1999.

Will Good point!

Here is a thread that discribes this problem.

Low Voltage problems
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000oGQ

-- Brian (imager@home.com), May 29, 1999.

If the home does no have an alternate souce of heat, the you must drain the system before it freezes. When power returnd, then water can be let back into the heating system

Good luck,

Bob P

-- Bob P (rpilc99206@aol.com), May 29, 1999.

Anti-freeze.

I saw this on a site somewhere; the idea of pouring anti-freeze down your pipes after turning off water supply to prevent backup. Don't know if it would hurt anything, but the alternative is worse.

-- Scat (sgcatique@webtv.net), May 29, 1999.

Scat BAD BAD BAD idea!! There are toxins contained in antifreeze that can kill. Tens of thousands of pets die every winter from drinking leaking or spilled antifreeze. You are not that much different you know! Not to mention it would take another caustic material to scrub the *sticky* gylcerol from the pipe walls. Get it!!!

Cheryl:

The best insulating common material is cardboard. It has a much higher R factor than paper or rags. Wrapping first with one of these followed by a wrap of cardboard and duct tape will suffice under the house. Eliminate drafts under your house. This is the major cause of frozen pipes beneath the floors.

Frost will not travel horizontialy. When I installed water systems in Alaska, the *minimum* depth of water lines is 10' below ground level. This is true right up to the foundation line of the building. Once inside the building line, the copper service can come straight up to ground level within inches of the foundation wall. This is because frost, which will freeze pipes up to 15" in diameter beneath the surface, travels down vertically but not horizontialy.

The suggestion of drain down when pressure is lost is correct. Usually the plumber is required to install a low point drain on the service line to your house. Not always though. You should find the lowest point possible and drain as much as you can from there, if you expect extended outage. Make sure to open another faucet to eliminate vaccum which will trap water in some locations. You can then simply blow into a spigot to remove the remaining water in the system.(close second spigot or faucet first, lightheadness may occur)

Turn off the valve at the meter box to insure the system cannot be recharged due to a faulty valve or through siphoning if you are at a low point in the water main circuit.

If you simply must put something into your pipes to avoid freezing, consider a salt solution, but you had better be pretty clever in order to get it in there. LOL

-- unspun@lright (mikeymac@uswest.net), May 29, 1999.

Cheryl,

I don't know where in Oregon you live but for the most part it doesn't get that cold. The fire places that have been converted can be unconverted, all you need is some fire brick and a wrench and they will save your pipes. If you are really concerned, drain the pipes.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), May 29, 1999.

CT: My family lives in northern Ohio. I don't expect the problem with my home in Oregon. Concern is for parents and sister.

THANKS ALL FOR THE GOOD ADVICE.

-- Cheryl (Transplant@Oregon.com), May 30, 1999.

Cheryl;

While it has been generally temperate here for a long time, the weather patterns have changed, both naturally and unnaturally I suspect. We have have had frozen pipes on occasion, but nothing like a good Noreaster off the Lakes ehy? Dad was from Penn and Mom from the NW so we grew up on the interstate. Welcome to Oregon, and keep a good eye on those toes. If webbing sets in, you know you have been here tooo long. Hey Hey

-- unspun@lright (mikeymac@uswest.net), May 31, 1999.