kids and violence

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Are things all that different? Did you consider your high school dangerous? What do you think is causing these high school shootings?

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

Answers

I don't know... In elementary school I was the kid who got beaten up as a daily ritual, and I was always "different" and picked on as a result (the beatings eventually stopped but the ostracism and ridicule didn't). And the schools I went through weren't even all that bad by most standards around here - I was never aware of anyone carying around actual weapons. Still, what got me through a lot of my days in the evil institutions were the admittedly rather sick fantasies of exterminating my fellow classmates and the uncaring, sadistic teachers. I think there's something cancerous about school in America. But I never seriously thought about actually DOING it. I don't know. The shootings I read about in school make me cry, partly for the people who get shot and their families and partly because I don't think kids just go and shoot other kids for the hell of it - they do so because they are desperate and hurting inside, and this is the only way they see to stop the pain. I wish I had an answer. But I tend to think of schools as evil places and getting worse all the time. And when I hear people on the radio say "it's because we took prayer out of the schools" I wince and realize that there is no hope left for America. No

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999
I graduated high school in May of 1994.. not too long ago. My high school wasn't that dangerous, mainly because it was on an overseas Air Force base. Every day we had armed guards wave us through the gates, and during the Gulf War two American SPs with M-16s or two Dutch MPs with M-1s would board the bus and check all of our ID cards to make sure we were supposed to be there. If there was ever a danger in our school, it was because the entire base was threatened, and that rarely happened.

Now I'm a student attending a college not one hundred miles from the Littleton shooting. My wife is terrified -- I'm seeking a teaching certificate here, and now we're both sort of sketchy about me teaching at all. I mean, if it can happen in Littleton (and Paducah, and Jonesboro, and..) it can happen anywhere. I assured my wife I would not play hero and get myself killed. Even so, $22K a year is not quite enough to risk being shot at. But who teaches for the money anyway, right?

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

Ok, the problem is this:

Kids easy access to weapons.

The way they were brought up, parents abdecating responsibility for teaching proper behavior to the government, teachers, and anyone else they could blame for their children's bad behavior instead of cracking down and disciplining them.

Someone mentioned "If could happen in.... it could happen anywhere." But where do you find these things happening? You find them where they are condusive. I wouldn't see this happening in the Northeast, but I also wouldn't see kids getting pregnant and hiding it and killing the baby at birth in the mid-south. The types of values and the attention paid to certain types of behavior are radically different.

Sure, in New York and other urban areas, there are shootings outside schools, but they aren't these ambush everyone scenarios. They are more gang or drug related and specific attacks, not planned out massacres.

There are vastly different mentalities of teens from area to area on (acceptable) behavior and reaction, even if they all fall into the same 'angst' type. Also, they are exposed to different things (hunting, centers of klan/cult activity, etc).

I blame the general attitude lately that the government is now everyone's mother and its laws and institutions should be focused on preventing behavior through rules. Well, that just doesn't work, and parents have to step up and begin to avail against the attitude that spanking a kid and disciplining them is child abuse. For me, I seriously had some fear of my parents. This fear kept me from doing certain things I knew I'd get disciplined for.

I doubt any of these kids involved in these shootings were under control to begin with. Aside from that kid in Seattle that was just nuts - he killed his parents first. That's just mentally unstable.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

For a lot of us, school was a terrible place. Stephen King was a teacher before he made it big, and he called high school a "pit of man- and woman-eaters."

Has anyone watched the network news? Either parents are horribly out of touch or the media assumes parents are idiots. ABC news had a "man on the street" reporter assuming everyone was as ignorant as he was:

"These boys were a part of what's known as 'Goth' culture, and they listened to what's called 'German techno music.'" As though he was talking about social life on Mars.

High school can be dangerous and demoralizing, sure. But if parents these days need Good Morning America to clue them in about the existence of techno music, then maybe more parent-child interaction is in order. If you aren't noticing your kids as they construct pipe-bombs in the basement, something's wrong.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

I graudated in '92 from a high school with less than 400 kids in it. People got beat up. Occasionally they'd get cut with a knife, or hurt with blunt objects or bottles. Not a very frequent event though. I heard a couple of stories about knives being found in lockers. It was generally a pretty safe school, though, in a safe area. The town had a population of less than 4000 and nobody ever locked their doors.

A couple of years ago, I was visiting and my brother (who has since graduated himself) told me that they found a gun in one of the lockers. Drive-By's had happened in the town next door, and he'd had a stereo stolen from his car. They all lock their doors now. I remember wondering, "What's happening? It's been less than ten years for crying out loud!"

And now, "at least" 16 people were killed in a high school only three hours away from where I grew up. We used to go to Littleton every now and then during school trips.

I've given a lot of thought to the why of all this myself. The why, and the hows. Then I look at the kids around me, at the grocery store, or the movies, or the fast food joints, and it doesn't seem so mysterious to me.

In Target a few weeks ago, a 6 year old boy ORDERED his mother to come with him to the computer game isle. His mother meekly obeyed. At the barbar shop I go to, a boy was getting his hair cut. At least, the lady giving the cut was trying. He put up with it for a while, then seemed to get tired and started yelling and whipping his head about. The woman giving the haircut sent a desperate look to the mother who got up and told her son, "Now if you stop doing that I'll give you a sucker. I'm getting the sucker right now if you stop doing that. I won't get it until you stop doing that!" The kid stated screaming to his mother that he wanted a sucker right NOW. And she meekly went and got one. The kid ended up getting out of the chair with half a haircut.

Biggest arguement I ever saw for birth control was working at a Buffet restaurant. Kids running around screaming, carrying forks and knives in their dirty little hands, sliding on the tiles, while their mothers sat unconcerned at their tables, shoving the food into their mouths. I almost got stabbed in the gut myself once when one of them came plowing into me while I was carrying a hot pan of lasagna.

The point is, there is no discipline at all for these kids. They're giving instructions to their parents? Man, if I'd even raised my voice to my mother, I'd be standing up for days. Nowadays, the kid would take their mother to court for spanking them, and likely win! I'll admit that child abuse is a horrible crime and it must be stopped, but is it worth it treating these kids like eggshells? People talk about these kids not having any conception of reality. Well how can they if we're not going to discipline them? It's our job to teach them not only what to be, but why. And it's not going to happen if we don't make them listen. All I see nowadays though, is parents letting them do whatever they want. I think they're supposed to learn to be their own person, or some such, but all I see them learning is a lack of respect for anyone or anything.

Anyway, the only thing now that scares me more than my wife announcing she's pregnant, is being 70 and having these uncontrolled little demons in charge. I wonder who is going to pay when they throw their temper tantrums then?

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

I agree that the prayer thing is a stupid reason. It's not religion. It's the values instilled in the kids' heads. My father always taught me that to hurt anyone or anything in anyway was not ok. To hurt an animal is not ok, to punch my sister, is not ok, etc... He taught me to respect people and to be thankful for the life I have and not judge or criticize others for the lives they have. It's values and morals that I think these kids are lacking. I have never wished death upon anyone and meant it or had intentions of doing it.

There is something seriously wrong in this picture. How the hell did they hide all those bombs? don't parents pay attention to what their kids are doing? I know my parents found out everything I did and yes, there are some things they don't know, but it's stuff that doesn't endanger anyone.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

Argh! Why is it people latch onto the sub-culture? Skinheads are not Nazis. Some Nazis are skinheads. Back in the day (late 80's) skinheads HATED Nazi skins. But the stigma remains there.

Goth didn't make these kids do it. Techno didn't make these kids do it.

Wearing combat books didn't make them do it.

Lack of discipline and parental-taught responsibility did.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

When the racist skinheads came out at my school, the sharps (or skinheads against racial prejudice) rallied with a vengeance. I actually had SHARP propaganda up on my walls at home, and in my locker. Any kid with a bald head was under attack from other kids, and it was hard to explain. "See, these guys hate because their laces are white. These guys don't because their laces are blue."

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999
goth doesn't make you do anything except dance strangely & wear intresting clothes. in fact, that's the bloody point of goth...to huddle in the darkness.

the problem is systematic racism. the problem is an outdated code of behavior that promotes wasteful and dangerous individualism over productive group effort. the problem is that it's your constitutional right to act paranoid and insane.

god bless america. thank god i'll be teaching in canada.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

I am a recent high-school graduate (it hasn't been a year yet) I feel I can make some conclusions as to why these things might happen. It all comes down to parents and administrators. Parents who don't give ANY sort of attention, whether it's discipline, affection, or simply realizing that something is wrong, i.e. depression, gun-toting manic behaviour, or just their child struggling to get through. Because yes, high school is hell. It's a big struggle for those who are on the other side of that thin thin line that distinguishes between the "cool" and everyone else. Kids torture other kids because of physical, mental or emotional characteristics, or just because they can. And I can say most of it goes on in school, where kids since age 7 spend about seven to eight hours daily: in the halls, in class, in lunch, on the bus, etc., etc. And that's when some of the responsibility does fall on the teachers. Many teachers will ignore and turn a blind eye in giving administrative discipline that is within their ability and their responsibility of taking a teaching position. In loco parentis is a term I heard through much of my schooling. Schools take the responsibility of the students from the parents while they are at school. And sadly enough, I have seen so many teachers neglect to reprimand students who torture and tease others. I have been in classes where there's the kids who call on others' weaknesses, where kids call others faggots and queers and pigs and dykes and fat ugly retards and lesbians and I could go on forever. My school never had much violence, though we had some members from notorious area gangs, but I know there were kids who dreaded going to school every day, from the fear of what humiliation they would have to endure that day from their fellow classmates. Luckily they were mentally stable, but there are those who are not who will snap. I don't believe that blame should be placed, or fingers pointed, but responsibility should be taken. It's been reported that these kids talked about their guns somewhat openly and were obviously disturbed in someway. Where are the psychiatrists? Where are the anger-management classes? Teachers, parents and other administrators have to realize that they do have a responsibility for shaping these kids' ideas and morals. I agree that implying blame on culture and society because these kids were supposedly "goth" is damaging for those who are gothic. Maybe they were goth, but that has nothing nothing NOTHING at all to do with what happened in Littleton. Don't go blaming goth subculture or Marilyn Manson or movies. Nobody put ideas in these kids heads. It's nobody who took notice and helped them before they unloaded their hate and hurt on their classmates and teachers. I just really want to know where these kids' parents are as they're in the basement building bombs and collecting guns. How come we haven't heard anything about them?

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999
regarding the recent high school graduate:

I agree with you, to a point, but I feel you can't really place the blame on teachers.

Teachers are the whipping posts of everyone, and it just isn't their fault.

Oh, sure there a a few that just aren't good teachers, but that's not the issue. The issue is that teachers are expected to take the parent's role in disciplining even when the parents haven't disciplined their child. How can a teacher now be expected to teach a class, if they have to spend it doing the job a parent should have done long ago?

Also, rules no longer let teachers discipline kids like they should be allowed to. Lawsuits and threats of lawsuits keep teachers from even touching kids, lest a hug becomes sexual abuse, or grabbing a child who is beating on another becomes child abuse. Teachers are then assaulted by the parents on 'how dare you punish my child/give them detention/yell at them, they came home crying!'

The same parents who aren't involved in their children's lives blame teachers, then sue them when teachers try and keep control. A child kicked a pregnant teacher in the stomach in the hallway where my wife teaches, do you think anything happened? The parent was called, yes, but did the parent do anything? No.

Teachers are given no leeway in either direction, and they shouldn't be the first line teaching children respect and discipline. Kids should have that before they go to school.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

I agree with R Squared. It's not totally up to the teacher and he's right, teachers aren't allowed to do shit. They get bombed by irrate parents and kids and they are made to feel incompetent.

I do agree that saying they are/were "goth" has nothing to do with it. Just because somebody is a prep and he kills someone doesn't mean that some other "prep" is going to do the same thing.

The media is trying to find something or someone to blame. It has nothing to do with religion or what type of music they listen to or how they dress, it's in the home. These kids were probably starving for attention.

You dress to be accepted by your friends, so they didn't dress that way to get attention. They dressed the way they did because their friends accepted that. It's all a bunch of bull shit. It angers me that all this steorotyping is going on and everyone is over looking the real problem.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

I graduated back in the mid-80's and my high school, although rural and gang-free, had its share of violence. The difference was that the deans at our school (there were two, one for girls/one for boys) were not only concerned with the breakdown of security among the student body -- one kid pipe-bombed a toilet after hours -- but with the reason behind the behavior. And they got involved when they needed to, which was usually IMMEDIATELY. And that's what needs to be done.

None of this "Mrs. Jones, if you do not get Douglas to cease his disruptive behavior we will have no choice but to suspend him," but more like "Mrs. Jones, Douglas has been suspended as of this moment. You and he and his father may return to my office next week and petition for his reinstatement. At that time, Douglas will have completed 20 hours of community service with the local food bank. Because Douglas seems to have a problem with authority, I recommend that you have him make an appointment with our local sheriff to discuss where other young men with authority problems have ended up. Lastly, his aggressive behavior in respect to our young female students has been noticed and will not be tolerated. If he wants to re-enroll he will have gone to the womens' health center and signed up for an education class. If these conditions are not met, then the local truant officer will be calling on you soon and charges will be filed with the district attorney."

Administrators and lawmakers should not make the fellow students and teachers of these bent nails their future victims by their silence and inability to stand up to the whines of a generation of parents who "just don't have enough time in the day" to keep an eye on their kids. Turn off the effing television and spend some time with your kids, for the love of mike! If you don't know what your kids are up to, then you don't really know your kids.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

I graduated from high school in the dark ages (well, 1980, but it might as well have been). I went to a huge school that pulled in a lot of rural as well as city/suburban students. There were a few race riots every spring - one guy got a pick embedded into the back of his head, which was rather grim - but there weren't large scale hatreds. I agree with most of the responses here that lack of discipline and respect are a huge part of the problem. The instilling of these core values is the parent's job. I don't want to sound self-righteous or preachy, and currently I'm childless, but I've been shocked to the core by situations I've witnessed in stores and restaurants involving parents and their children; admittedly my shock is more like "how can you dare" combined with an incredulous stare because I can't conceive of giving my parents that amount of lip and managing to survive the night. I certainly would not have been able to manufacture bombs out of odds and ends in the basement without getting a third degree. (Perhaps I'm a tad paranoid as a result, but...) I gotta say the media hype doesn't help. I'm not sure what will, but endless tape loop of the situation isn't a band- aid.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999
Our school had fights about once a year. We had a very little drugs, mainly by the few "bad" students. We were peaceful, and obeyed our teachers. A small country town in NSW has a lot going for it.

I just cannot comprehend armed students, metal detectors or ID badges.

Australia follows the US in so many ways. I hope sincerely we can avoid the troubles by actively addressing the problem our youth and their families have.

It's the family. They're not to blame - it's just generation after generation of poverty and no education about raising a family. We've broken down the support for a family by separating each group from the others. We move for work, our lives are too busy for silly things like family bonding. Well, sorry, but if the family isn't in excellent condition - the country goes too.

We're still a little colonial out here. I hope it stays. Long enough for us to look at our small society and begin the repairs.

Di

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

Ok, I just wrote about this in my journal before i began reading the rest of the journals out there. so to see my full point of view goto www.iconovoice.com/nichols but anyhow, i don't blame the parents at all.. one of the shootings his parents displined him right i believe granted he did let his son have guns... but he took him to classes and to ranges to learn the safety and reality of them.. he ended up taking all the guns away and locking them up (the kid broke the lock off and got them). I seriously belive that a lot of this is just rebellion and lack of sensitivity to violence in general... my two cents.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999
Arg .. resending because the last post cut out almost all of my writings..

Ok, I just wrote about this in my journal before i began reading the rest of the journals out there. so to see my full point of view goto www.iconovoice.com/nichols but anyhow, i don't blame the parents at all.. one of the shootings (don't remember.. i think the oregon one..) his parents displined him right i believe (ended up finally taking away the tv altogether after he kept sneaking in to watch "cops".. took the thing out of the house entirely. the father had strict rules and if not followed he followed through with punishment.. not crazy abuse punishment to put the kid on the edge.. but punishment that was suitable but not soft.) granted he did let his son have guns... but he took him to classes and to ranges to learn the safety and reality of them.. he ended up taking all the guns away and locking them up (the kid broke the lock off and got them). I seriously belive that a lot of this is just rebellion and lack of sensitivity to violence in general... my two cents.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

--They stomped his head open with their combat boots. "Go back to your country," they shouted at him. The Vietnamese-American boy screamed back, "I'm sorry I ever came to your country." --I was sitting on the bus with one of the "KKK" and he said to me, "You know, I'm hanging out with (insert-killer's-name-here) today. He's not even supposed to be in the city limits. Just because he killed some gook." --It happened when I was in high school, but no one talked about it. And when no one talked about it, it went away, just as everyone hoped it would.

No, things aren't different. Yes, my highschool was dangerous. And after reading your entry, I completely understand why this school shooting happened.

Whether or not you understand why things like this happen depends on who you are, and who you were when you were in still in school. So who were you back in the day? Back then, I probably wasn't all that different from that murdered "gook" you described, although I'm of Japanese descent.

I felt the same feelings everyone else felt when I heard the Columbine Highschool story. Sadness. Disbelief. And compassion for the victims - those who were shot. And then I read that quote above in your entry for 21apr. And it all came back to me, how I was beat up by the "kewl" kids, how I was called a "gook," how the snotty teachers ignored me, and how the bus driver simply drove on when I got abused. And yes, I fantasized about ways I could get back at them. The reasons for why I survived are likely luck and my begging my parents to start driving me to school.

So after reading your little story about that dead Vietnamese boy, I felt a rush of hatred for you, Pamie. I hated your city, your school, your old bus driver, your friends, and you Pamie, for not wanting to talk about that whole "awkward" situation of the dead "gook,", back then, for letting them get away with it, for even sitting next to that KKK kid who said the word "gook."

And in that instant of hatred, I suddenly realized that if Pamie's old highschool happened to be Columbine, then I couldn't care less about the people who got shot. Because then they would have been from the same town and school that didn't give a shit about that dead "gook" way back when. If I had been that dead "gook," then they wouldn't have cared about me.

I know I wouldn't care if the Trenchcoat Mafia had stormed my old college. What do I care if some rich Vandy frat boy or some snobby Vandy debutante gets blown away? I KNOW for a fact that none of them ever gave a damn about me.

So you see, I know why those trenchcoat kids did it, and I know how they could have been capable of it. Because Something had made them stop caring about their fellow classmates, their school, and their own lives.

Flame me and my indifference all you want. Chances that I don't know you and consequently don't really give a shit about you.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

I live in Columbine High School's service area.

While I do not have children (yet), I have neighbors with high school age children. As far as I know, all of them are ok, though I have not spoken to everyone, so I'm unsure.

I'm fairly sure that the group that the two shooters belonged to have been meeting in the park near my house that I often walk my dog in. We have seen a group of young men in black trenchcoats radiating malignance there in the late evenings several times over the past few weeks.

I wrote a long response to all of this and then decided that it was irrelevant.

Welcome to human nature. Humans are pretty nasty creatures.

The only difference between what happened at Columbine High School and what's been happening in Kosovo is a matter of degree. Both are cases of people deciding that the only way that they can avenge the wrongs done against them is through more violence, and in so doing, just continuing the legacy of destruction and torture and brutality.

No human is immune to those feelings. I'm certainly not.

I somehow doubt that the human race will ever get over it. I just hope that they don't take too much with them when they go.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

Damn. Reading your entry made me realize how glad I am to be going to such a good high school. We don't have gangs or anything even a suggesting racial violence (or any other type of violence, for that matter). I can't believe the things you had to deal with when you went to high school. The worst thing that has ever happened was one kid beat another kid up because he wouldn't lick his boot. That's it. Oh, sure...there's tons of drugs and everything else that goes with that but we have little or no violence in my school. Am I the only one like this? My father used to tell me horror stories about his school similar to yours. God, this gives me a new found love for my school and everyone in it. Usually the worst we ever get is kids threatening to beat others up. That's about the worst of it. Barely ever does anything come of it. There's little or no fights...I never realized how good

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999
After reading everyone's entries and having a day to digest this all, this is what I've come up with. We spend a lot of time pointing fingers and placing blame. Blame the government, they don't do enough. Blame the schools and the teachers, the don't care. Blame the parents, it's always their fault. Blame the music,it's junk and not the cool stuff I like to listen to. Blame their ideas and the kids.

Why can't we stop trying to place the blame and come to realize that this is all of our faults. Yes mine and everyone else's. Why? Because everything we do affects those around us and the people around them and so forth. It's the ripple effect.

We have an economy and a standard of living that requires most families to be a minimum of 2 income families. It is a very fortunate family that can afford to have one parent remain at home with the kids while they are in their formative years. Birth to Death but really birth to high school graduation at the very least.

We have schools and teachers that are overworked and underpaid. We also have parents and community members who truely believe that the schools need to pick up where the parents left off raising their kids. There are so many rules and regulations that govern discipline that most schools are left with no real discipline. They have to give so many second chances that the kids learn to ignore it. They'll get another chance or they can appeal the decision. It holds no meaning or weight for them.

The government has no idea what to do and frankly all they really need to be doing is coughing up some considerable money and not muddying the waters more.

And we as a community need to be less afraid to speak up and act. There are mentoring programs out there. There are volunteer opportunities that can help our kids but we are so busy with our own lives and the lives of our families that we ignore those out there who need us but have no one to turn to.

Things have to change drastically if these tragedies are going to stop. We've become paralized by the fear of litigation and revenge and violence and so on and so on. We've become numb to the sounds of our children and neighbors and the anonymous person in our community who is desperately screaming out for help.

We can't let incidents like this fade from the collective consciousness. If we stop talking about it and reminding ourselves that this could happen ANYWHERE, then it will happen again and again and again. Just take a look at what has been going on in the Balkans and in the former Eastern Block countries and in the Middle East. People are being hurt everywhere. We swore that another Holocaust would never occur again after the tragedy of WWII but here it is happening again and again because we forget the lessons learned. We don't pass those lessons on to our children and because we get lulled into a false sense of security and vigilence.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 1999

What is different between now and then? Nothing. The violence we are seeing today has always existed. From our roots as primative beings hitting each other over the heads with rocks, to our slightly less primitive selves shooting each other, our copacity and tendancy for violence has remain unchanged. The trend toward incrasing violence (if it is actually increasing, and not just being reported more) reminds me of the experiments they did with rats. If you put a large number of rats in a very confined space, even with unlimited food and water, they will kill each other. Sound familiar?

-- Anonymous, April 22, 1999
[...] Stone said the weapons included:

1 9 mm semi-automatic, assault-style rifle 2 shotguns that had the stocks sawed off At least one handgun [...] (taken from cnn.com)

Well, I do know that weapons do not kill by themselves. People use them do do harm, but in the end, the people are the ones who kill, not the weapons. BUT: Who gave these semi-automatic rifle to a boy aged 17 ??? Who gave it to anyone ??? I am from Germany, and i have to admit that I have never seen a real gun except on tv. I remember my time in school (I made my ABI, the grade you need to attend university, in '96) and i remember i was VERY afraid of the guy who someday brought a knife along. He was my best friend in class and i knew he would not hurt anyone (except maybe himself accidently), but he had a weapon, something that hurts a bit more than just a brawl in the hall (all boys at some time settle their disputes by punching and kicking each other, i think that's pretty normal) and although i knew him, i was frightened. I don't think any of my classmates that decided to do civil-service instead of joining the armed-forces for one year (In Germany, if you are a male german citizen, you have to do one of these) has ever fired or even touched a gun. America calls itself the land of freedom, but i, too, feel free to do what i want (certainly not without consequences) and I do not own some weapon able to kill dozens of people in a short period of time. How can a private person (regardless of age/sex/race/whatever) get access to a military-style weapon ??? And in my opinion, everything capable of killing a human being just by pressing a button definetly IS military style.

-Bertel

(Don't get me wrong: I am quite a wargame-enthusiast, including all sorts of computer/board-games, films, history-lessons etc. Some weekends i spend entirely moving tiny plastic tanks and infantry around on simulated battlefields rolling dice and consulting 1000+ pages rulebooks (taking a break only to do lower priority tasks like eating or sleeping) BUT: Real weapons do Real harm and should NOT be accessible for ANYBODY)

-- Anonymous, April 22, 1999

Hey, Kevin T.--I think maybe you understood a few things, here.

My school bus was rough. I didn't agree with the kids who killed that boy. I didn't even know that boy. He had been a friend to some of my friends. I was angry that these kids got off with just a slap on the wrist, and I was scared that so much racism was just on my bus. I had never been exposed to that before. Not right there next to me.

And the reason I was sitting next to him was because we had assigned seating. I had to sit next to him. I hated him. I still do. The reason I remember that day so vividly is because of how angry I got hearing this boy talk about this person who had died.

I was quoting him, not making my own statement. I didn't agree with his words, and I still don't. I'm angry nothing happened.

I'm sorry you read my words differently. I meant nothing like that. I'm angry and upset, too.

-- Anonymous, April 22, 1999

Kevin T. - back off bud. You need to cool down and re-read what pamie said. You are a good example of what hatred does to people. I know you're angry and upset, but not everyone is racist. Do you think you're the only one who got called names in school and made fun of? Well being white isn't always easy, either. You have some of the African Americans who are pissed because their ancestors were slaves and it's the white people's faults. To say the word "hate" is a big mistake. You shouldn't "hate" anyone. That is the worst word to use in any meaning. You can be mad at someone or dislike them, but "hate" is too strong of a word. Go back and read what she wrote and get down off your high horse. We all have troubles and problems, but I'm not telling anyone, especially someone I don't know, that I hate them.

-- Anonymous, April 22, 1999
Obviously, the problem is those trenchcoats. According to an AP story, NRA president Charlton Heston said it's "outrageous" that kids are allowed to wear long coats in school. Several school districts in the Denver area are banning trenchcoats because they make people nervous. That sure oughtta put an end to school violence. When this story broke, I suspected that goths and techno fans would get unfairly linked to this massacre, but I never imagined it would be necessary to defend an article of clothing (popular with cowboys, Humphrey Bogart, and cold people) from pointless discrimination.

-- Anonymous, April 22, 1999
I just love it when someone response antagonistically with an anonymous name.

Anyway, I agree with Kevin. He has a point.

But, you know, I've been thinking more and more about this one thing. There were two gunmen. There were tons of athletes, and faculty that had advance warning that these kids were coming and they huddled in fear under desks, as sitting ducks.

First, for the kids in the Library, there was an exit right there.. why didn't the faculty send them out? Second, the reason I single out the athletes is that you would think these kids could have been taken out. I mean, they were just walking up to people and shooting them, not spraying bullets from hundreds of feet away. That one shooting with the prayer group - that one kid went up to the shooter and stopped him.

This 'seige' went on for hours. The school was pretty big. I'm just wondering why no one had a 'fight' instinct, and everyone had the 'flight' instinct - and not very good ones, at that.. more like 'hide' instincts.

-- Anonymous, April 22, 1999

Regarding fight or flight, I think it's too easy to sit back and say what the folks should have done. Instead, imagine the unreality of it all, plus the intense sense of self-preservation especially at a young age.

It takes extraordinary courage for someone not trained as, say, a soldier to consciously set aside that instinct and say, "I will die if I do this, but I will do it anyway."

Because, see, there were two gunmen this time, and while that first hero might have bought time for others to overwhelm both boys, he or she certainly would have died.

-- Anonymous, April 22, 1999

There are other things that I didn't say yesterday that I wanted to say:

I was talking about how they enforced a dress code at our school. Well, that's not entirely true. It wasn't completely enforced. The problem with schools like mine and like Columbine is that they are huge. Enormous schools. The teachers and faculty can't know everyone. They can't see everything that is happening. I had to turn my t-shirt inside out one day because I was wearing a shirt that had Divine on it. They didn't want me wearing clothing that depicted a transvestite's lifestyle. I obliged because they asked, until I saw they walked right by the girl in the "White Power" t-shirt. Did they see her? Probably. She graduated in the top percent of our class. It's easier to make me change my shirt with a John Waters icon, I guess.

but the schools are so large. They can't see all of the picking and cruelty that goes on in these schools. High school is rough. You reach a breaking point. You can snap. It happens. But what you don't expect is that no matter how angry these kids are, you don't expect that they have the access to so many weapons that they can damage a school like this.

There's no respect for life. There's no respect for other kids. I understand what Kevin T. said above. Why should he care for those guys when they didn't give a shit about him? That's how these kids think. That's what has to stop early. There needs to be respect. Kids tease each other and label each other and make their own class system-- but they shouldn't be allowed to be violent. They shouldn't be allowed to be that hateful. Racism, sexism, homophobia-- they don't belong in a learning environment. What bothered me most about my high school was that these "KKK" kids were allowed to stand in the center of the school-- the place where all the halls met. They were allowed to wear their hatred on their sleeves and their shoes and their shirts.

And then the quiet ones get angry. Why can't they act out, too?

And I'm angry that I was exposed to so much racist hatred in school but I was too scared to do anything about it. I hated that when I did get in a confrontation with someone I was told by teachers and parents to keep quiet-- graduation was only a month away and we didn't want to do anything that would hurt his chances of going to a good school.

Because when you're in high school you're thought of as a kid. That kids act up and then they finish that phase and they grow out of it. you feel depressed and terrible and suicidal right now, but in a month you'll fall in love or get a good grade or something and you'll forget how much you hated yourself.

You don't. You just don't.

You have to treat all of the kids with the same rules. No one passes a class just because they are an athlete. No one gets to break the dress code just because their thighs are firmer or their ideals are more agreeable. I don't want to see a white power fist, and I don't want to see a bloody hand with a nail through the center saying, "He died for you."

I just want to learn. They just want to learn. It gets so messy when the social part of school comes to play. And no one is regulating social policy.

Sorry for the rant. Just a few more things on my mind.

-- Anonymous, April 22, 1999

For Pamie and pissed off,

First, let me clarify that I don't "really" hate you, Pamie, not in the HERE and NOW kind of way, it was more of an instant flashback if-I-had-been-there-back-then hatred. I love Squishy. If I didn't, would I come here everyday and listen to her? I was, and am, making it clear that the motives of Klebold and Harris are not great mysteries at all. The motives are easy to see: hatred, apathy, and vengeance. I bet that if you ask one of the Columbine jocks "why did they do it," he'd probably say something along the lines of "because they were worthless crazy jerk lunatics." Then ask him "why were they worthless crazy jerk lunatics?" And he probably wouldn't know why. Well, I know why. People become that way because of how other people destroy them, not in the physical sense, but in the emotional sense: all the humiliation, the ostracism, and the apathy. And as for "Pissed Off person", of course I'm aware RIGHT NOW that I wasn't the only one being mistreated. But back THEN, when I was the center of ridicule, I didn't CARE if others were being ridiculed as well, because being emotionally destroyed like that wrecks all of your sensitivities for other humans. When it became apparent to 10yr old Kevin that the World didn't give a shit about him, the only way for him to preserve his own sense of self worth was to stop caring about anyone else but himself, to put himself on his own "high horse" as a sort of shield for his self esteem. And I think that those two Trench Coat Mafia members felt the same way. I was hateful way back when, just like Harris and Klebold were on Tuesday. When I was a child, I wanted bloody revenge on those who did me wrong. But Yoda and Obi Wan are wrong. Hate and anger aren't EVIL things in themselves; hate and anger are merely reactions to the world. Just reactions, with neither evil nor good tendencies. Its what you do about those feelings, how you use the energy they give you, that makes them either good or evil. Saying that its "wrong to hate" is naive. But most of us don't have the guts to really do something about the hatred we feel. Klebold and Harris did. Unfortunately they did something completely unacceptable to society. I'll be honest, I don't have the guts to do Something either. I won't start up a website and a lifelong campaign to end school gun violence. I won't run for political office. I won't devote my life to counseling troubled teens. And most likely most of us who read Squishy won't do a damn thing either. Once a few weeks pass and the media ceases to arouse our attention, we'll amuse our emotions with something else other than Colorado. Lessee, how many days till Phantom Menace comes out? (And BTW, I understood Pamie the FIRST time; she was making the point that not talking about Columbine would be disastrous, and that dialog would be one way to heal the injured. I'm feeling better already. Thx Pam.) ---Kevin

-- Anonymous, April 22, 1999

I've been reading this all with interest, and I emailed a response directly to Pamie, but I want to air it in this forum as well.

The bit that really gets me is that, in the Western world, this kind of violence is only happening in the USA. A few messages back Martinique listed a few social problems in America today - both parents having to work, lack of responsibility for the raising of children and the transference of responsibility onto teachers, lack of adequate government funding to address these issues.

These problems aren't unique to America - every Western country is experiencing exactly the same thing. Why don't other Western countries have the same problems with violence? I've never heard of a school kid in Australia taking out his classmates. I've also never heard of it happening anywhere in the UK, despite the 66 million people there. I come from New Zealand, where every single murder still makes headline news, and often there is so little violence to report that a bungled burglary will get a mention. It's also interesting that Amercia seems to be the serial killer capital of the world (followed closely by the former USSR).

I think the issue is constitutional. Why should people be given freedom of expression if they deliberately use it to harm other people? If you let some KKK freak walk around calling people nigger and gook, you shouldn't be too surprised when one day some redneck drags a black man to death behind his truck - he's just physically expressed his feelings. I can't even imagine what it would be like to be a black kid or a Jewish kid and sit in a classroom with somebody who proudly displays the dubious publications of Hitler. Why should people be able to do this?

The other big problem is a right to bear arms. If the powers that be in America can't see why this is a bad idea then they're the ones you should all be lining up and shooting. If you don't have to hunt your own food you don't need a gun - it doesn't take Einstein to see bad people will easily get hold of the weapons and do some damage.

As I said to Pamie in my email, I don't hate America. I just don't understand it. I was raised in the green and pleasant land of New Zealand, and now live in London. I thought England had it's fair share of social problems, and it does, but quite frankly it seems like a walk in the park compared with America. I've never visited the USA and I can't honestly say I'm itching to go. I know there are fantastic people and amazing things to see, but there is also completely random violence.

Actually, as an outsider I think the entire American education system is completely screwed. How can you let people get free entry to college because they're good football players? It makes a mockery of the whole idea of higher education. Why do you care who homecoming queen is? How can you stand living somewhere where people want to be cheerleaders?

I tell you - we may speak the same language but you guys are as different to what I know as a Zulu warrior would be. I would appreciate any opinions, explanations, or clues!

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999

Hmm.. Well, you could look at it this way:

All you really see about America is the media hype about things that happen here. I don't judge Australia on that gunned standoff that happened last year, or Germany on the neo-nazi underground movement that the media insists is sweeping through the majority of young males. I do judge the French, but, hey, they're the French. (grin)

And I don't think every other Western country has the same kind of parental distancing from raising there children as much as the US. I get the feeling from people I know from the UK, and Europe, and New Zealand, and Australia, and Japan, and Hong Kong, and Korea, that even the local communities are still very involved in eachother's business.

A neighbor still will drag a child home to their parents, and the parents will then do something about it other than sue the neighbor for touching their child. In the US, people more and more don't wnat to get involved.

Also, the US is a large place. 66 million. Ok, well, that's a nice number, but 273 million is a touch more than that. Statistically, you're going to have more events int he US than elsewhere.

As for our Constituition.. well, freedom of expression; the idea is that if you start determining what is 'agreeable' or 'correct', you immediately give power to the majority to clamp down on a smaller group, say women campaigning for the pro-choice movement in the 1970's, and make their speech a crime. Hey, I don't like the Nation of Islam folks in the park downtown in NY preaching about how me, specifically, as I walk by, as white man is the devil and should be risen up against. I can argue against them, but, hey, as delusional as it may be, they can have their opinion.

As for the right to bear arms.. it was born of a different age, but fits with the ideals of the country for the people to be able to assist in the defense of the country, or their homes. It's a romantic ideal that has been taken advantage of, and some states have taken steps to correct the problems, such as waiting periods, registration, and other restrictions. Some states, like Texas, it's a part of their culture from when they were their own country.

And the educational system..Well, as long as college isn't a guaranteed right for everyone, and our secondary system remains the most competitive in the world, I'm not complaining about the few dumb football players who get a free ride. There are plenty of programs for smart and needy kids, as well, although they aren't so publicised.

The general public education system is a mess simply because of politcal wrangling and parental blaming of teachers, and forcing 'standards' down everyone's throat. First off, the school board system is stupid. You have parents with personal agendas and no educational background making up budgeting decisions and scheduling decisions for schools. And the politics behind trying to get state and federal funds for the system are insane.

For all you hear about America, it's only been what has been exported. We all don't watch Baywatch, play football, and coo after cheerleaders. We don't wear holsters and cowboy hats. Although we will elect a President who used to be a major film star. We're kookie that way.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999

This is excellent! Somebody actually providing me with some answers!!

I agree that my view of America is only a media portrayal of what's going on over here, and I'm sure there is a peaceful 'middle America' somewhere where life does not involve toting a gun. However, it is the American media that is portraying the country in this way - CNN supplies most of the other networks. So we can't be blamed for only knowing what we've been told. And it seems that these horrible mass shootings are increasingly happening in Middle America instead of LA or New York or Washington.

It's not like England doesn't have it's share of dodgy goings-on. The latest one has been the Stephen Lawrence murder and the fiasco surrounding arrests and charges (let me know if you don't know what I'm talking about). England has a vast number of racist thugs, but they just don't seem to go postal at school.

I think you're right - there is a difference in attitude regarding parental distancing, but I can't quite work out why that would be. Take America and New Zealand, for example (pretty bizzare contrast, actually) - both countries were founded by the English who were seeking to escape the class obsessed grim life they faced at home, the settlers of both countries rode roughshod over the natives once they arrived, both countries gradually developed from there, and both countries were definitely christian in origin (and still are in theory). What happened to make America so different? The only obvious difference (aside from the huge difference in population - I don't think that should come in to play too much when discussing the 'psyche' of a country) is that New Zealand is still part of the commonwealth. I don't think, however, England is exercising some benign influence that keeps New Zealand soft and friendly.

Good point regarding the constitution, but do the Nation of Islam people and their contemporaries ever start stringing up white guys? It's easy to ignore verbal stuff, but the KKK and co. don't tend to leave it there, which is why I think the constitution virtually condones them behaving badly by never discouraging them from expressing their views.

As an aside, I work for a TV company and one of our highest rating programmes is Jerry Springer (don't worry, I know that's definitely not an accurate portrayal of Mr Joe Average Middle American). All the dreadful 'I slept with your husband' and 'Surprise! I'm a transvestite' dross gets aired over here, and the only programmes that we do not show are the racial ones - showdowns between Nation of Islam and KKK, that kind of thing (and the ones along the lines of 'I sleep with my horse' - just too gross to think about). The racial ones are seen as too provocative and deliberately antagonistic. I suppose this is a supression of freedom of expression, but if it is I'm all for it - every time the KKK get media coverage and thus free publicity it reinforces to them that they're a viable force to be reckoned with. Most bullies will give up if ignored for long enough.

I'm sorry to hear you're not all football playing, cheerleader ogling Baywatch fans. Another one of my illusions shattered! Incidentally, despite being raised in New Zealand I have never owned my own sheep, and yes, we do have electricity and running water!!

(oops, written another novel).

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999

You know with all the talk about blaming Doom or Goth or The Basketball Diaries, I'm surprised with the recent finding of the bombs in the kitchen that no one has brought up Heathers.

J.D. was the original member of the Trenchcoat Mafia, you know.

Not that I'm saying Heathers is to blame, but you know, they're looking for something to blame, and I'm surprised they haven't jumped on this yet.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999

Jackie,

The difference between New Zealand and America is simple: size and diversity. 273 million people, and everyone is a minority. I would wager that the white, anglo saxon male is not more than 50% of the population. Each section of the country, and sometimes sections of a town, are influenced by different cultures and history, whether a Spanish background (Puerto Rico), independant country (Texas), cajun (New Orleans), slavery (the South), etc..

Also, most Americans can state three or more types of ethnicity in their bloodlines. My son has Spanish, German, Irish, English, Polish, Scottish, and French.. so you can't really say both countries were founded by the English and are Catholic. Walking down the street in NY city, each face you look at will be different.. Korean, Japanese, Indian, Saudi, Russian, European, black, white, purple with pink polka dots, old, and young.

I don't know of any country that is able to match the diversity of America, to the point that it is expected that each person is different. Sure, newer immigrants usually cluster into one area, tuning it into little Pakistan, or what have you, but then they tend to farm out like the Poles and Irish and Italians have and pervade every part of society. Most other countries, you end up with defined pockets, like in Kosovo, or the Kurds in Turkey, etc...

Also, to bring up serial killers again.. wasn't there those guys in Belgium, and also one in England that buried people in the house? I don't think I've heard of the Steve Lawrence thing...

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999

re: Heathers:

But heathers is so cult and underground, the media is probably too sheltered to know about it.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999

OK, I'll give you size, but diversity? I suspect you may not be too familiar with the cultural breakdown of New Zealand (I don't suppose it made up a large portion of your school curriculum ... 'OK kids, let's learn about ... a random small country!'). It's actually made up of people from just about everywhere you can think of ... lots of European (from both Western and Eastern countries), lots of asian races (they're pretty close to us geographically) and lots of pacific islanders from various countries. And the Maoris, who were there to start with. A very broad mix, in other words.

Similarly, different areas of the country have difference influences as a result of the nationalities of who settled there (bear in mind that, aside from the Maoris, hardly anyone was there before 1840, so influences have not had a huge chance to dissolve) - I can think of Scottish bits, Scandinavian bits, and Samoan bits off the top of my head (but I won't bother naming them because you won't have heard of them!).

Regarding racial mix - we too have that. I'm a relatively tame half English and half Kiwi, with the English side being English/Scottish and the Kiwi side originally being English/Irish, but you frequently come across people with Samoan, Maori, Asian, English and Romanian blood all sloshing around inside them. In short, New Zealand is every bit as multi-cultural as America, it's just got less people.

And yes, both countries were founded by the English. You had your Pilgrim Fathers, and we had the guys that came over and signed the Treaty of Waitangi. All the other races and creeds came along after the country was founded as a separate entity. I didn't say Catholic, I said Christian. The Pilgrim Fathers and the Treaty of Waitangi guys were religious (Church of England though, not Catholic), and your government still says that 'In God We Trust', not in Buddha or Zeus. Likewise New Zealand, despite the fact that less than 50% are officially Christian any more.

I think the Belgium serial killer was actually part of some paedophile ring, if memory serves me right. And the Rosemary and Fred (I think his name was Fred) West couple were the ones burying people in the garden. Can you think of any others from England (I can't).

The Stephen Lawrence case is a disgrace and a blot on the already appalling British judicial record. A black teenager was killed in Brixton, South London in 1995 and straight after the case five white guys were identified to the police by around 25 separate people. However, the police didn't bother bringing the five guys in for questioning for a couple of weeks, despite the fact that the five guys were known to be racist, weapons-carrying thugs with prior convictions. By the time they finally were arrested there was not enough evidence to find them guilty, although their alibis etc were a joke.

It was a basic case of massive police incompetence, and has raised questions regarding institutional racism within the police force (big surprise there). The fact remains that, in England, five black guys with so much evidence against them would not be walking free if they'd killed a white guy.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999

You know, I think I *did* hear some people talking about Heathers in relation to this nightmare, though that was just a bunch of people in the hall. In any case, I wear all black and a trenchcoat all the time, and you wouldn't believe (well, maybe you would) all the funny looks and completely unfunny "what are you hiding in there?" jokes I suddenly have to absorb.

As far as America goes, I think we have a basic attitude problem: we care about kids. Period. As I understand it, over a quarter of the children in this country don't have enough to eat. Psychological torture in the schools is taken as normal. Heck, the entire school system exists not to educate us, but to teach us our place. I know a lot of people in junior high and they are turning those places into boot camps.

The more kids get squeezed by a system that makes it perfectly obvious that they aren't wanted, the more angry and/or hopeless they are going to get. What happened in Colorado (and far too many other places) depresses, sickens, and saddens me. But it does NOT surprise me.

Also, I tend to suspect that if this had happened in an inner city school somewhere and involved all poor black kids, this would NEVER have made the news, or at best it would have been a by-the-way.

I'll shut up now before

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999

Sorry to waste space, but somehow that last post goofed up - I tried to say that we do NOT care about kids. Kind of an important word to leave ou

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999
I think we've all hit upon one of the major problems related to this and many of the tragedies in America. The media has to carry a lot of the blame. I'm not so naivee that the social and economic problems I mentioned earlier are only found in America. I know that they are not just here. I've seen it first hand in Central and South America where things are worse economically and the violence is just as bad. I don't know where the problem started but the media. Sure we don't hear about kids going into their schools and killing their classmates but they also have a definitive disciplinary rules and procedures in place. They don't worry if the parents are going to sue them they just make sure that offender is punished.

We as a whole nation have become paralyzed. We are afraid to act. We spend so much time in front of the "Boob Tube" that whatever flavor the media is serving up millions of people are eating it up and spouting it as the gospel truth. Do we see the problem.

And I was thinking about Heathers this morning. It is definitly a little too underground but just you wait and see some hip and clever journalist is going to make his/her career by finding the connection to this cult favorite. My husband hates the movie because it is what it is and because of the message that it seems to put forth. Revenge is cool and fun especially when they deserve it. I simply laugh at the absurdity of the stereotypical students. Besides I hate Wynona Ryder.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999

I've been reading the discussion on the differences between New Zealand and the U.S. with a great deal of interest. You've all made some very good comments, and obviously have put a lot of thought into it. Cultural diversity and population are definitely key elements in the development of a society, but I think there are a few other variables that need to be pointed out.

For one thing, Democracy is still very much an experiment. Sure, the U.S. government has been in place for a couple of centuries but if you look at that in comparison to other government systems, that's still infancy. I understand that the Parliament and the Crown in England have undergone some serious changes in the last few centuries, but still, the essential structure has been in place for a LOT longer than our government here in the States. In a way, Americans are all kids, still trying to figure out how to do things. We've been fortunate in that we've grown up very fast, and made ourselves very present in the world, but we're still the babies.

I would also say that even more importantly than population differences are population density. We're considerably more spread out than either New Zealand or England. This allows for a completely different situation. People growing up in L.A. are essentially living in a different world entirely from people living in a rural town in Arkansas. The U.S. is not called the United States for nothing. It's basically a collection of different countries bound together. Each state has its own way of doing things, and exist as separate from another as they are the same. I've lived in three different states in my life, and I can vouch for the differences not only in law and government, but in attitude, in poplation (and population density) and racial mix. This has definitely had a dramatic affect on the development of the American society. It doesn't help at all that a number of our states once rebelled, and were forced back into the whole. That was over a hundred years ago, but memories can last a long time. Look how long the differences between Pakistan and India have survived. Or Israel and its neighboring countries! Heck, on a recent trip through a number of states, I saw places where the Confederate flag is still flying!

Well, I've rambled on enough. I hope some of what I've said has made sense. I'll be happy to explain myself more if necessary, however.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 1999

I kind of feel out of place responding to this - I'm not even 16 yet, but I'm really interested in what everyone is saying. I think that this all comes back to the lack of focus. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that there was an acting guard on duty at Columbine, right? And, of course, they had security cameras. Cameras that they never checked. It seems like they - as well as so many other schools, mine being one of them - were just going through the motions. How could no one notice a 35 pound bomb in the kitchen? It just doen't seem feisable (Spelled way wrong, sorry!)that no adult knew that anything was wrong.

I think it's silly that districts keep shutting down smaller schools, and shipping kids off to these enormous complexes. Does anyone know what the Student/adult ratio was at colombine? Every student needs one on one attention. I think it would be a good idea for students to meet with their councelors on a schedual - once a month, or once a marking period - and just talk about how things are going. I don't know my councelor at all, and I've never gotten even the slightest impression that he knows or cares who I am. Maybe if more students knew who they could trust, and who they could talk to, they would be more willing to confide!

I hope I didn't overstep any boundaries. I just wanted to show you things from a teenage point of view!

-- Anonymous, April 24, 1999

Movie analysis... Heathers is not about revenge being cool and fun and stuff.

No one deserved anything they got in the movie, and it all spiralled out of control, ending up destroying the person who thought they were in control of it, and a shift in thinking from being charge and being cool don't make the person.

It's a parody of everything, down to 'Suicide Don't Do It.'

-- Anonymous, April 26, 1999

well of course it is.

heathers is a satire.

That doesn't mean they won't blame it.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 1999

Hi,

The violence in the news had inspired me to write a journal entry on the subject, as it has many online journalers. I hope no one minds if I quote myself here. It seemed relevant. Violence and Hypocricy:

People aren't born violent. They learn it from (insert bad influence of choice here).

Well ... no. The problem isn't that innocent kids are buying things [Marilyn Manson | Doom | Adolph | Slobodan] that corrupt them. And believe it or not, there are kids who grow up as outsiders at school without killing, or without taking even a finger from anyone. The problem is that too many of us can't tell the difference between a winner and a homicidal maniac.

Let me start with a little quiz. Can you tell which of the following is a homicidal maniac?

Could you tell which one was the winner and which one was the homicidal maniac? If you couldn't, don't feel bad. At least ten thousand women couldn't either. If a Playboy model couldn't tell the difference, what chance do we mortals have?

-- Anonymous, April 26, 1999

Oops! That Violence and Hypocricy comment was a little strong to throw out with out an explanation. The second part of my entry was on Kosovo.

Sorry about the confusion.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 1999

Pamie, first of all, yours is the only commentary on the violence in Columbine HS that has made any sense. It gives me greater understanding into who you are. Things were very different in my HS years '73-'76 our school district was rated third in the country at that time. But nowhere did I ever hear of trouble beyond fighting. Even the worst kids would not carry a gun or knife to do harm to someone. Maybe to intimidate, but you never heard of a shooting, unless it was an accident. There is something wrong with the question of what is causing the shootings. The news offers two choises, gun control, or greater secruity, resulting in lack of freedom. This is not the only choise. I guess what I am trying to say is that now that we have all this freedom and technology, shit happens, if we are gonna stay free, then, this might happen at any time. I hate to see it used as an excuse to restrict our freedoms. Our society and culture is going down and when it finally bottoms out maybe a new society will be born. I dont know. Does anyone?

-- Anonymous, April 26, 1999
I figured I'd post because I hadn't noticed any parents' perspectives on here yet...

How do teenagers get guns? I don't know. My sons are 3 and 7. When the first was born, I swore: "No guns. Ever." Well, first thing you know they're constructing guns out of Legos and waving sticks around, cowboys- n-indians or power rangers-n-putties. You discourage this but can't stop it. Then it's 95 degrees and you let them get water squirters at the store because it's summer and kids are supposed to have water pistols in the summer. Then you graduate to those cool, neon-colored super soakers, and you all have a blast. From here it's a short leap to those Nerf guns that shoot little foam darts. One Christmas you find an ingenious wooden rubber-band gun at a craft show. Then your brother buys them the Mighty Morphin Power Ranger Laser Weapon, and you have the vague sense things are out of control.

When the Oregon shooting happened last year, something snapped, and I systematically went through the closets and toyboxes and threw away the entire arsenal. I felt really good. And they never missed the stuff.

But it never ends. You watch "A Christmas Story" (a great movie!) and they learn that BB guns are the ultimate toy. Next thing you know, your 6-year old is waving the five dollar bill he got for his birthday at the grocery store and imploring you to let him buy a cap gun like his best friend has. "It's MY money!" he wails.

What to do? You had promised he could use his money for anything he wanted. Your brother had a cap gun growing up, and a lot more. What's the harm? But somehow you stand firm and refuse to allow any form of weapon in the house. He picks a yo-yo instead. He becomes a really good yo-yoer. You are proud.

Still, friends and relatives keep giving guns as gifts. It's really hard. And we're just one family, with good-hearted peaceable boys.

It honestly is too hard for parents to change alone. We need help. That is not a cop-out, it's not absconding responsibility. Society created this fascination with weapons; society needs to control it.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

Well, when I was a kid I loved playing cops and robbers, loved shooting kids with the waterguns, loved mock wrestling and such. Nerf guns and the sort that shoot the really light pingpong balls are hilarious and fun. I had a BB gun, and I want another air rifle because I enjoy the practice and the skill it gives me. I'd also be scared shitless if I knew a real gun were in my house, or if I were handed one, even if they safety were on. Real guns disturb me.

I was also tortured through elementary and middle school, though high school wasn't so bad (I was there for only half a semester anyway; homeschool now). I was a chubby little kid who was too intelligent and too eager to participate in classroom conversations on school-related topics, and therein lay my reasons for being outcast. I played my fair share of Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, and Marathon (yes, I'm a Mac user). I enjoyed them when I played them. I used to be into the people-in-black thing. I would probably have started wearing a trenchcoat to school if I thought I wouldn't have either A) tripped on the damn thing or B) sweated like a stuck pig. Most of my best friends were like that as well. I used to happily sing the version of "Deck the Halls" that talked about burning the school down. I had and am having a shitty childhood with a mother who used to beat me and now is basically mentally incompetant and painfully stupid, and I can't get away for another 3-4 years, at least not if I'm bright. And you know what? I never dreamed of hurting my classmates. (OK, so I did beat up the boys a bit in elementary school, but they asked for it and no one actually got hurt. It was that boys-against-girls game, you know?). I never hurt anyone. I loathed a lot of teachers, but never really planned their demise.

I'm just sick and tired of the friggin media. It really takes something terribly, terribly wrong with a child or person to make them kill like that. It probably can't be blamed on the parents too much (though I hear that they had a video in film class that portrayed them going through the school shooting the jocks, and no one's fears were roused by this). It certainly can't be blamed on the clique they were in or not in. It can certainly be blamed to a large extent on the kids, but not too much.

In short, there was something very, very wrong with these boys. When I saw their pictures, I was heartbroken, and not for the kids they shot. They look like many of my male friends: a little funny-looking, decidedly geeky. That sounds like stereotyping but if you can understand the way that hit me, I assure you that it's not. I am terribly sorry for them and their victims.

It's really too bad that instead of looking at this and learning that perhaps one should not tease potentially dangerous persons, the jocks and the preps and the people in the various "bubble groups" will only tease and torment more. Sigh. This just goes to show that children should not be exposed to anyone less than 10 years th

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

Apparently IE 4.5 for the Mac has a bug! *crunch* Anyway, what I was saying was: "...anyone less than 10 years their senior until they are 18.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999
Bastard parents teaching their bastard children that it's ok to dump on and ridicule and just generaly make a living hell out of the lives of non-conformists,fat kids,smart kids,or homosexuals.Until that stops you will have kids getting fed up and deciding to take a few bastards with 'em.leaving the world no poorer.

-- Anonymous, July 26, 1999
High school was always a place of nightmare and violence. Try being a bright, bookish kid at a small-town southern high school. You're instantly assumed to be "queer" and made a target. High school is "Lord of the Flies", and the teachers encourage jock arrogance. Jocks are taught that winning the game is what the school is really all about, and that athletes are allowed to do what they want to non- athletes. The desirable girls are of course monopolized by the jocks. Anyone different is an objectof ridicule and violence; intellectual life is despised as 'unmanly', 'useless', and 'subversive'.

Now-- as a kid of 12 or 13, I did learn how to make explosives. My friends and I made gunpowder bombs and blew big holes in the backyard. Eventually my mother made me stop, but only because the yard looked like the aftermath of the Somme, not because I was 'psycho' or because of the bombs themselves. It would never have occured to me to bomb the school, let alone mount a kamikaze raid on everyone.

That kind of suicidal violence is what happens when people under pressure finally snap. They know who to blame. It happens in southeast Asia-- remember the origins of the word 'amok'?

It's absurd to blame Littleton on goth culture or video games. Has anyone seen the violence in comics and cartoons and TV from the 50s and 60s?

The parents here should have been at school long before the shootings, arguing that the clique-ridden world of high school and the jock culture were destroying their kids, that one day the repressed would return. Don't say they should have 'disciplined' their kids; they should have tried to change the system that drove the kids to real-world violence.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 1999

I just reread this entire forum, and I noticed something. Many of the postings have blamed parents, teachers, the media, the availability of guns, and a few other things for the violence in high schools. Now, I'll admit that most or all of these things play a part in what has been happening. However, I think people are forgetting that no matter how they were raised or how horrible their home life, everyone still has free will.

I'm saying, for society to function, we must hold people responsible for their own actions and not get caught in an endless chain of finger-pointing. By all means, parents should teach their children that killing people is wrong. Teachers, by virtue of being teachers, have accepted a responsibility for the children they teach--look out for them as much as you can. And I think most people agree that kids should be kept away from guns. But when it comes right down to it, people (even kids) make their own decisions and nothing that could have happened in their lives absolves them of responsibilty.

PS: I'm seventeen years old. I'm a kid. And I find it a little scary that people think that everything I do can be blamed on the way I was raised.

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2000
yes, I agree with you that people should be held to their own responsibilities, but if they were never given a proper grounding in guidance, especially when they have been allowed to be 'anti-social' with impunity, then those responsible for discipline and teaching them the 'right' way are in error. I think the thing to note is that these kids are for the most part 14 and under.. not that there really is a cut-off in maturity and self-actualization, but usually around 15 or 16 people begin to realize consequence and generally 'accepted' behavior.

I used the 'quotes' because of course this has no relation to some places where survival is at a premium and it becomes be tough and kill or be killed, like on some city streets. the main topic this spawned from, though, are the school killings where these kids had no reason to believe they were in such dire jeopardy.

-rich http://www.inferiority.com

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2000

The news just showed a news report on national trends in suicide: the overall suicide rate was down, however, suicide rates in 10-14 year olds, and in Black males in their late teens, have doubled or more. The report cited a doctor saying that these suicides are violent acts, suggesting a relationship with schoolyard massacres. (Of course, they also pointed out that the schoolyard massacre rates have gone down, so maybe in this doubling of child suicides, we've trained our disposable population to keep it to themselves).

What kind of role parents, teachers, and media play, I would think, depends on how difficult it would be to convince the violent offender that his negative self-image is wrong. It depends on how difficult it would be to convince the violent offender that he matters. I imagine it becomes very difficult if he is invisible to his parents, teachers, and/or the media. (Are the individuals around you really like the people you see on TV? Like Ricky Martin of Britney Spears or those people in the GAP commercials? If they're trying to be, I would be scared.)

If you've come to the conclusion that the value of your life is zero, why not take with you those who you deem no worthier of life than you?

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2000

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