On the one hand, I've always liked Heinlein.

On the other, it was hard enough to find one person who would put up with me, much less many.

-- Anonymous, April 13, 1999

I usually actually give my name on this sort of thing, but this is a little personal... Some years ago, when I was in college, I thought about experimenting with sex. My best friend was (is) bisexual, and her boyfriend at the time was bisexual, and just as a lark, my boyfriend and I thought we'd see what would happen if we tried a group thing with them. What happened was that my boyfriend chickened out before any of us had so much as kissed, and ruined the whole idea for the rest of us, and none of us ever mentioned it again. So I never got to try it, but I thought about it. Skip ahead a few years. I fell in love with my best friend's (new) boyfriend. For a long time, I kept quiet because they seemed to have such a good thing going. Then, when it became obvious that their good thing was all show, and underneath it had become rotten, I quietly provided her boyfriend some motivation to leave, and eventually I married him. Now, it was rotten, but it had been stable in its rottenness, and she hated me for a while for doing it. It took years for us to regain our friendship. I'm mildly astonished that she didn't write me off forever, actually.

Anyway, my point (was there a point?) was that I really loved my friend. Not sexually, but even that might have been possible. And I really loved her boyfriend. And if their relationship hadn't been over (even if it wasn't Over yet) then eventually the three of us might have formed a polyamoury. I don't know if it would have worked, but we might have tried it, rather than having to choose and hurt someone.

Maybe that's how they start.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

The point is just that it is petty and selfish to be jealous of another's happiness, especially someone that you love. Would you want your lover to have have no friends except for you? Not love anyone except for you? What makes having a sexual relationship with someone else different?I hate the idea that love has to involve some kind of sacrifice of individual happiness.A lot of the reasons why people have given here for not understanding polyamory seem to boil down to being insecure, jealous, and bad at having even one relationship.It seems like these are kind of sad reasons for being monogamous.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

Girl: Then you see our point without realizing it. Humans *are* "insecure, jealous, and bad at having even one relationship." Don't get me wrong, I would love to have the self-esteem necessary to not worry about sharing my mate. But I don't. I want that attention, that love, that sex all to myself.

That doesn't mean I'm wrong for it, or that polyamourists are wrong for being able to share.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

Wheee, Pamie, you sure do pick the great topics! Lovely discussion..

First off, let me start by saying that you, Pamie, Miss Squish, you do NOT need to worry about positioning your body and catching the right angles, and 'being sexy' for anyone. If "he" (or "they") love you, "he" loves you for YOU. Not for your angles or your 'being sexy'. If anyone loves you, they love you for the personality stuck inside your body, regardles of that bodies shape. Pamie, you are beautiful, quit stressing. Nuff Said?

About polyamory - that always sounded like a nifty, utopian kind of dream to me. I mean, especially if you read Heinlein (all bow to RAH), you know what I'm talking about. All these supremely well adjusted (and beautiful. and old.) people running around sleeping with each other indiscriminately, regardles of familial relationships. It's funny that Lazarus Long is the only one of the whole gang that ever shows any twinges of societal conditioning - even though he eventually always cooperates and sleeps with his mom and sisters and everyone else on the planet. I think that humans are no different from other pack animals in regard to multiple partners EXCEPT for societal conditioning. It's like the whole nudity taboo. Our American society says that nudity is shameful and naughty and wrong and a 'sin', while European society says "hey, it's a body, big deal". If human society as a whole got away from the idea of single partners being 'right' and (more importantly) religiously sanctioned, I think polyamory would be a viable, sensible alternative to the traditional 'marriage' structure. For example, in two of Heinlein's books, he mentions two forms of non-traditional marriage that make 'logical' sense (of course, if my boyfriend ever looked at another woman, I'd be a tad pissed!). He mentions a group marriage and a line marriage, and they seem to be good ideas. If you're interested, read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "Friday". But without that societal change, polyamory will only ever work for a small minority of people who can throw off the uncomfortable expectations of society and live how they choose.

Well, I sound like a total dork now....

MellieBee http://members.tripod.com/MellieBee

PS - What do you guys think about having the "post a response" link at the TOP of the forum, instead of at the bottom of the page? Am I the only one who'd like it moved up?

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

Before I say anything let it be known that I am quite happily married, monogomously, and have no plans to change anything.

Having made that disclaimer, I beleive I would follow the practice of Polyamory, if I were not married to the particular person I am. That I fell in love with someone completely monogamous generally insures that I am monogamous as well (if I want to stay married, which I do).. I don't know a whole lot about it, but I do know someone who is polyamorous. I never got the impression that polyamory meant living with several people at once. That's polygamy. I'm pretty sure those who are polyamorous would not agree that these two things are the same at all.

In fact, let's take a look at the meaning of the words. Poly, meaning Many. Amor, meaning love. Many loves. It is generally a societal concept that love equals marriage. How many of the people who spoke agaisnt (however slightly) polyamory are married, I wonder? Would those that have never been married, then, say that they've never been in love?

I don't believe that marriage and love are mutually exclusive. You can have one without the other, right? Here's another question: Have you ever been in love? (Btw...this isn't directed at Pamie, but at anyone who might read this) Have you ever loved someone and broken up with them? Have you then, gone on to love someone else? Or is Love,"true love" only a once in a lifetime experience?

Now, supposing there is at least one reader out there who says that love isn't a once in a lifetime shot. Suppose whoever it is admits that, yes, they've loved more than one person in their life. Having loved and lost, or at least moved on, could you say you never wanted to feel that way again? Or would you continually seek it?

Now a lot of people would say (or think) "sure, I've fallen in love. I've even married them. Maybe it wasn't the first love of my life, but it's certainly the last!"

My question to them is, Why? Why does it have to be the last? Why are you going to refuse yourself to feel something so wonderful for someone else? Because believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, that's what you're saying when you enter into a monogamous relationship. This is it. One love, forever. Or at least until "death do you part" in which case it's okay to fall in love again.

As for favorites...how many people out there have a favorite food? Show of hands, folks! Okay...now how many of you with a favorite food, would like to never eat anything different again? The same great meal every day for the rest of your life? Anyone? Okay...what about favorite book? WOuld you choose a favorite book to read for the rest of your life, and never another? Favorite movie? Favorite song?

Hmmm...interesting.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

I'm so not getting any work done....

In response to Just Telvin's (sp?) comment: "My question to them is, Why? Why does it have to be the last? Why are you going to refuse yourself to feel something so wonderful for someone else? Because believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, that's what you're saying when you enter into a monogamous relationship. This is it. One love, forever. Or at least until "death do you part" in which case it's okay to fall in love again."

Here goes... You refuse to feel something wonderful for someone else because we (humans in general) have been conditioned for centuries that multiple love is WRONG. Because we (individually) have had it drilled into our pointy little heads since birth that you do not love more than one person romantically, you do not 'marry' more than one person at a time, and that you are a damn freak if you question that 'rule' or want to break it.

I'm NOT saying that I think polyamory is 'wrong' or 'bad'. I think it's not socially acceptable. If society as a whole were to change, it could become 'wrong' to practice monogamy (how's that for a strange thought?). I'm merely trying to point out that there is a VERY good reason to "refuse yourself to feel something so wonderful for someone else". Humans are not conditioned to accept those we love (romantically/sexually) loveing others. People are trained their whole life to get really pissed off when someone they love fall in love with someone else. Remember that I'm speaking romantically/sexually/maritally here. Otherwise they'd be called friends, right?

Anyway, that's why you should not allow yourself the pleasure of loving (in that sense) more than one person at a time. It's not right or wrong, that's just how it is.

Oh, and speaking in the exact 'many loves' sense, people DO practice it. I love my boyfriend, I love my brother, I love my dog (ok, he may not be human, but he's still 'people'), I love my friends, and I'm sure that when I get the chance, I'll love my child(ren). In the strict, literal translation of the words POLY and AMOR, then everyone in the world is polyamorous. We're so naughty....

MellieBee

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

Two of my best friends are in a non-monogamous marriage. I'm not sure what their philosophy is specifically, but I know that this is one of the things that drew them together as a couple (they both thought they'd have a hard time finding anyone who'd marry them, because of their views on monogamy). I think they've had sex with a total of three or so other people since they've been married, two years ago. All potential candidates are discussed between the two of them, and they each have veto power over the other's suggestions. It seems like a good system, and they're deliriously happy together. The one thing they stress is complete and utter honesty, with yourself as well as your partner(s). I think that this helps them avoid the jealousy, etc. that would otherwise undermine this setup.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

Ah, yes. It's the "I could *never* do that!" syndrome. Whenever I tell someone that I'm poly, that's the inevitable response. It's perfectly valid--in both directions. See, I don't think I could ever be completely monogamous, any more than I could decide that I'm going to be either het or gay, but not bisexual. I'm just not wired that way. Offered a choice between vanilla and chocolate, I will almost always opt for a swirl.

I'm not saying that it's easy. Relationships (at least, ones that are worth having) aren't easy. When you increase the number of people involved, you increase the level of complication. But that doesn't mean it can't work, or that it shouldn't happen. I love my girlfriend. I love my boyfriend. Who do I love more? I can't think in those terms. All I know is that my life would be much poorer if either of them weren't a part of it. And as for jealousy...well, I was insanely jealous of my ex-fiance's other partner during the time we were monogamous. His "other partner," the entity that got the bulk of his time and energy, was his job. Having only one partner doesn't guarantee that you won't lose that person to another human, another interest, or anything else.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

Gah. Where to start? Fair warning, I'm going to meander a bit.

I guess the best place to start is in part an answer to a comment above and an answer to something pamie said. A poly person's assumption should ALWAYS be that anyone they might get involved with will assume monogamy and thus any poly issues absolutely positively must be discussed early early early in the relationship. (I generally discuss them well before the first kiss, and since I have had sex on the first date a few times, that should indicate my opinions on the subject. *grin*) As a corollary, if you are in a relationship already where there is a monogamous assumption (whether deliberately or not), then you should understand that your partner has the right to react in just about any fashion if you try to then bring up poly desires. By getting into a monogamous relationship, you make a promise, whether you did it purposely or not. An ethical person keeps their promises. Statements about 'gifting your partner' or any of that is self-serving crap. Meet your committments or get the hell out of the relationship.

Now, that aside, why am I poly? Why do I set myself to be turned down by folks for that reason? (My being poly and insisting on saying 'if you can't deal with it, don't get involved with me' is probably the single most common reason my advances get turned down.)

Short version: I do not believe that I can be everything to one person. I suspect that most people feel this way, in fact. I think the difference comes in in that I extend this thought/emotion to things like sex, lifemate-feelings, and such. Most monogamous people, in my experience, want to reserve some set of stuff for themselves, in a way that seems like insecurity to me. I refuse to do that. If I love someone, and there is someone else who can do something for them better than I can, then I want them to be able to have that. As an extension, I know that I can be difficult to deal with sometimes. I don't feel justified asking one person to always be there for me. People are human.

I suspect that some set of those reading this are saying 'well, that's what friends are for!' But of course. Anyone I would consider for a primary would have to be first and foremost a friend. They would probably also be someone I have sex with, at least occasionally (though I suppose I can envision not having sex with a primary).

I sometimes characterize my feelings as 'possessive but not exclusive'. Yes, I very much do the 'my spouse' thing, and I mean it a lot more than many monogamous folks I know. My primary is MINE, just as I am hers. That doesn't mean I feel a need to stifle or limit her - I want her to be happy. I'm not doing a good job of taking care of her if she's not able to get what she needs.

I will admit that it bugs me that many people conflate committment and monogamy. It feels like a slam when they do it, a statement like 'well, you're not monogamous, so clearly you aren't committed to your partner'. I'll stack up what I'm willing to do for my primary against anyone, anyday. *grin*

One other cold, practical reason I have for polyamoury is that there's always someone to hand the baby to and say 'I can't take it anymore, I'm going for a walk'. *grin* OK, that's a bit flip way to say it, but I hope my point is clear.

As for 'doing it well', I have determined empirically that I personally cannot handle more than two primaries and still do each one justice. There is a certain amount of time required that you must put into a relationship, and that's about my limit. I think my ideal would be to have one male and one female primary where they are each involved with one another (a triad rather than a V) with the occasional secondary on the side. That meets my needs, spreading them over enough folks that I don't feel like I'm asking too much, while also not having so many folks in my life that I can't manage to give each one enough attention. If it isn't clear from the way I said that, I do not yet have that sort of relationship. I have been involved in some number of V sorts of relationships, both as the apex and as a leg, and none of them has lasted (what can I say, my primary and I are pretty picky *grin*).

I sometimes wonder, given that other people seem to agree with the 'can't be everything to someone' idea as long as they're not talking about sex and/or other intimate relationship-type things, if it's just that I don't see anything that divides those things into a category that deserves special exemption. I do not feel threatened by a partner going out to lunch with someone, or going out to dinner with someone, or having sex with someone, or talking to someone over coffee, or going with someone to see a movie, or spending a lazy Saturday morning snuggled up with someone in bed. I would feel threatened by a partner trying to hide any of those actions from me, though, I'll note.

For what it's worth, that's a quick collage of my thoughts on the subject.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

I'm a bit confused at the poly column being so geared towards discussing multiple partners *at the same time*. I consider myself poly.. and my situation is rather like what was mentioned in the post above. My partner and I can suggest, we each have veto power, and we both need to at least have met and liked any potential partner. We also approach any relationship from the viewpoint of just that - *a relationship*. We strive for longterm friendships, whether or not there is a continuous sexual relationship as well.

In the last 2 years since we finally came to agree on what was acceptable, he's had 2 partners and I've had 1. We don't look for partners, we don't go to swing clubs, we don't consider ourselves swingers (though we have friends who are). I think what we ARE is open to the possibilties... that we might find someone else attractive... that if we do, it's not a *bad* thing, that we can express those feelings to each other. If anything, it's brought us closer in many ways.. we communicate very well, and we have experiences apart from each other that make us grow and change in a positive way.

Another interesting thing to note: we were both married previously, in monogamous, "normal" relationships. I was not open to poly when we met, but after much discussion and thought, changed my mind. We are engaged now, and I have not felt even a moments doubt about the relationship, because unlike how so many people view marriage, I don't view it as an ending to possibilities. I can fall in love with other people without fear or guilt. And I can love my partner too, with all the normal ebbs and flows of a loving, committed relationship.

For us, it's meant that we appreciate each other, we tend NOT to take each other for granted, and we've made some wonderful friends along the way. And yes, honest and open communication in ALL things are the only way it works.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

Wow, this has become a very popular thread!

What I still find interesting is how common we see these relationships lately. I know several people who live this kind of lifestyle. I don't think my parents did. In fact, I only knew of one person in my parents' life that did, and he went to bathhouses and such and was considered to have a "dangerous lifestyle."

Now it seems to be much more common to find that people who have been burned or disappointed in monogamous relationships have turned to polyamory (is there supposed to be a "u" in there? I don't know).

the ones I've seen, however, usually turn into something bigger than they ever wanted. "Why can't we just all be in love?" But I've also noticed that some of those relationships didn't start with honesty, and that may have been the cause of the problems.

I find it amazing that people can be so open minded with their relationships, and so unselfish that they can understand their partner's need and desire to be with other people.

I don't even think it's because I'm conditioned to feel this way. I don't really lust after other people. I've never been in love with two people at the same time. I've never wanted that. When my heart has gone to someone else, it has always been because the relationship I was currently in wasn't working anymore.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work for me. I just can't think about more than one person at a time. I really can't.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

pamie says:

I find it amazing that people can be so open minded with their relationships, and so unselfish that they can understand their partner's need and desire to be with other people.

I find it amazing that people can be so selfish that they cannot understand their partner's need and desire to be with other people. *grin* Ok, ok, said that way it sounds like a slam, and it's not really intended to be...it's just that to me, 'love' means that you put someone else's needs before your own, and trust them to do the same. If I love someone, and that someone needs something, I cannot imagine a reason that I would prevent them from having that something short of real incapability.

Of course, I think that 'trust' thing in there is really important. I'm really massively disturbed by being lied to by a partner.

Then pamie says:

I don't even think it's because I'm conditioned to feel this way. I don't really lust after other people. I've never been in love with two people at the same time. I've never wanted that. When my heart has gone to someone else, it has always been because the relationship I was currently in wasn't working anymore.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work for me. I just can't think about more than one person at a time. I really can't.

I know people who are truly monogamous, in that their world just works best with one exclusive relationship. I don't understand it, but I've seen it. I also know people who seem to me to be monogamous out of insecurity, the 'my partner getting anything from anyone else is a threat to me and my position' thing.

Interestingly enough, the latter ones seem to have a lot more problems with my polyamory than the former ones. I think that the existance of polyamory is not a threat to the former group, but often seems like one to the latter group. My mom is in the latter group, though she has at least some reason - my dad pulled the 'oh, by the way, I'm poly' stunt after they'd been married for some number of years, and it eventually led to their divorce. She has had more trouble dealing with my polyness than any of the rest of my life, I think. Given that I'm very out about being bisexual, into BDSM, and so on, that's quite a lot of difficulty.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

Y'know, I'm getting tired of some assumptions about poly people.

Assumption #1: Poly people are incapable of finding real true love between two people and thus go fuck anything that moves. Also phrased as poly people are too selfish to do the work that monogamy takes.

Assumption #2: Poly people are more highly evolved than mono people and that's why they can be some calm and understanding and non-jealous but that's basically 'cause they're just weird and very rare anyway, and most people just couldn't hack it.

***

Those two assumptions have been implicit in a lot of this discussion, especially the early posts. And it's bullshit.

I'm poly because I happen to fall in love with more than one person at a time. And because it doesn't make sense to me to choose one love over another. And because the corollary to that is that it wouldn't be fair of me to expect my partners to be faithful if I'm not going to be. That's the core. Sure, sometimes I can just be happy that my sweetie has found someone else -- but that's me at my very best, and it doesn't happen so often on its own. Mostly, I have to work at it.

On a day to day basis, I get just as jealous as anybody else. I get horrendously insecure. I'm fat, ugly, stupid, and I bet s/he's better in bed than I am, huh?

But you know -- I tried monogamy. And I had all those problems, *and* I got to deal with not being able to express my love for other people, *and* I knew that if my partner fell for someone else, they'd probably either a) leave me, or b) cheat. Ugh. I'd much rather be sure I knew where I stood, *and* feel like I wasn't forever in danger of crossing some invisible line that meant the end of the relationship if I spent "too long" hugging someone.

So this jealousy stuff gets a little more intense sometimes with poly. Sometimes I'd watch Kevin just kissing Karina, and I'd get so jealous I'd burst into tears or have to leave the room. I couldn't stand it. But we talked about it, and I dealt with it, and it got better, and most of the time these days, I can be really happy for them. It's been a hell of a lot of work, but the rewards -- the rewards have been incalculable.

And I like myself a whole lot better too.

There are positives and negatives either way. You just need to figure out which ones matter to you.

-- Anonymous, April 14, 1999

Its great seeing so many well written responses. Reminds me of the old BBS days before the internet became such a hot item.

I may be wrong, but I believe Melliebee was saying that because society trains us to believe that polyamory is wrong, we shouldnt do it. Not because its right or wrong, [but because] that's just how it is. My response to that is, if I, or anyone else were to accept that, how would we every progress with anything? Im not saying that polyamory is better than monogamy, but Ill be damned if Ill ever let the status quo affect how I live. If women followed that rule, theyd still be at home raising babies, and thered be no such thing as civil rights. For that matter, all us Americans would be British.

I agree that society does a lot to condition us to accept monogamy as the only right way to do things. But it doesnt stop me from finding polyamory attractive, and I was raised with a very strictly religious background where such commonly accepted things as premarital sex and masturbation was strictly forbidden to even contemplate. But I broke through the mold that conditioning had placed on me, and so have several others. My wife is FAR more open to the possibilities of other relationships than she was when we met, and her conditioning has been even more rigid than mine. I tend to think that many of us are of the generation to break away from such rigidity. One of the reasons I asked so many questions in my earlier post is because when you ask questions, when you ponder WHY things are, youre one step closer to truth.

Of course Polyamory, isnt for everyone. I think its important that our society learns is that just because a thing is different, or against the mold, it isnt necessarily wrong. Different things work for different people.

When I first started the dating game as a young adult, I always went into a relationship committed to them and only with them. I tried very hard (and quite unsuccessfully) to do things, right. The way I was taught, so to speak. A few times though, I would meet someone else who touched my heart in a completely different way. Sex was never the issue, though it might have been a factor. It was always an attraction that went deeper than something I felt for a pet, a family member, or a good buddy. And it wasnt necessarily better than what I already had. It was similar, but very different at the same time.

I always tried to deny it, until one day I realized that by denying it, I was denying myself. And the question I found myself asking was, Why am I denying myself something that could be just as wonderful? Or better? Even now, I cant find a good answer for that.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

Easy, easy folks. No need to get so defensive. We're all friends here. That's why I would like to introduce my own philosophy-- polyannemurray. Because deep down inside, aren't we all born in a coal mining town in Novia Scotia, the daughter of a rural physician and sharing the house with 5 brothers? Don't we all feel a responsibility to feel our songs? Aren't we all daydream believers? Don't all of us have a 30th album coming out (our first in 3 years!) featuring duets with Bryan Adams and Aaron Neville?

That's all I'm sayin' people. Let's just all sing along in the great Christmas special called life.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

My general opinion on this or any similar topic is "to each his/her/their own," but I have to respond to a few suggestions I've seen here (and elsewhere) that people who insist on monogamy just don't love our partners enough to let them explore other relationships.

You must understand that I find that about as offensive as you'd find it if I said that polyamorous people just want an excuse to sleep around.

I love my partner enough that I wouldn't stop him if he wanted to explore other love relationships. However, we would no longer be "partners" if he wanted to do that. It's just not how I operate. The level of emotional intimacy I have with him is so vastly different from what I have with any other person that there just isn't room in my universes to spread that around. That's certainly not a judgment on anyone who operates differently -- it may be a simple distinction between introverts vs. extroverts.

(Note I didn't say sex with other people -- that's not what we're talking about, right? Casual sex with other people isn't polyamory, correct? We do mean *relationships* of varying degrees of seriousness? I have different feelings about sex; in the right circumstances, I could easily accept an open relationship in regard to sex only.)

Ever heard the saying, "If you have many best friends, you have no friends"? That's certainly not true for everyone, but it's the way I work emotionally. I can only really connect with someone if I feel like it's a special connection, something that isn't shared with anyone else. If he were equally intimate with other people, then there would be an imbalance and it just wouldn't happen.

Of course, what you have to understand is that I could never possibly connect on this level with someone who didn't work the same way I do.

It's insulting to label this trait "insecurity;" I could just as easily (and insultingly) label poly people insecure because they seem to need so much attention from multiple people. People work differently and it's all okay as long as we match up with people who work the way we do so no one feels stifled.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

The word "polyamory" means lots of different things to lots of different people. It can mean a tightly knit group marriage (of n people) who never have relationships outside the group. It can mean a couple who sleep around a lot. It can mean a loose-knit chain of interconnecting relationships. When most people call themselves poly, there's only one thing you can be pretty sure of: they engage in some form of "responsible nonmonogamy." The word "responsible" is key; if you're not honest about it, it's not polyamory (generally spelled without a U, at least in the US); it's cheating. Note that a lot of "monogamous" people in the US these days see no problem with adultery -- a lot of people behave nonmonogamously *without* their partner's knowledge or permission (or with a partner's tacit turn-a-blind-eye- to-their-peccadilloes "permission"). Most poly folk, on the other hand, do not consider cheating to be moral behavior. (Certainly many mono people don't consider cheating to be moral either; I'm definitely not trying to set up poly as superior to mono here.)

Back when I was reading it regularly, the newsgroup alt.polyamory drilled three fundamental tenets into my head over and over:

1. Open and honest communication is the cornerstone of any solid relationship, mono or poly. 2. Polyamory isn't for everyone. Some (many?) people are just plain monogamous. 3. Jealousy is normal and natural; you can get jealous and still be poly. The hard part is figuring out ways to deal with the jealousy, without letting it destroy your relationship.

A lot of people (though clearly not all) do become interested (sexually, emotionally, or otherwise) in someone other than their current partners. If that happens in a monogamous relationship and you don't have any way to talk about it, things can get really bad really fast. If nothing else, polyamory provides a framework in which to discuss such matters. I know several monogamous couples (and know of several others) who are struggling to deal with these issues; I don't expect any of them to turn poly, but the ones who are aware of polyamory -- and who are able to communicate honestly and openly about what they do and don't want -- seem to be able to keep their relationships strong in the face of such problems more easily than those who are taken by surprise or have never encountered the poly paradigm.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

I have a question for monogamous people. What is your relationship with wnating to sleep with other people, or loving other people? Some people say that they are actually not attracted to anyone but their partner. Other people say that they are willing not to do that in order not to hurt their partner, or in order to keep the relationship going.Somehow, neither of these options really appeals to me. Are there other ways of being monagomous?

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

Beth, let me say that I had not intended what I said in the manner in which you took it (the potential aspersion that mono folks do not love their partners enough - I'm quite sure that's coming out of what I said). I had hoped that my flip tone would cover that, but since clearly I didn't make myself clear:

The way that I love precludes the possibility of monogamy. I am not in a position to judge anyone else's love, whether someone else is actually in love or not, or what have you. Nor do I believe that my definitions of love are necessarily universal, nor should they be.

Please don't read my expression of the way I love as a criticism of the way you love. It wasn't intended as such.

The initial statement which I wrote and then backed down a bit from (the 'selfish' comment) was more than anything that it amused me to flip pamie's comment around to express incredulousness from the other side. Which was the reason I followed it up with 'ok, ok, that sounds like a slam, and I didn't intend it as such'.

In my experience, people who're comfortable and secure in monogamous relationships are in some ways fundamentally different than folks who're comfortable and secure in poly relationships. I do not claim to even begin to understand why that is or the details of those differences that make it work that way.

And there are plenty of insecure folks on either side of the fence.

I will hope that you will indulge me in the belief that I have found a superior solution for myself, granting, of course, that none of you reading this are, in fact, me. *grin*

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

Girl--

Monogamy, to me, has always been an understanding in the partnership. I don't look at it as missing out on anything or denying myself something. I share my body and my commitment to my partner out of love and respect, and part of our understanding of our relationship is that we only share that part of ourselves with each other. We fulfill each other's needs and desires physically and spiritually, and don't feel the need for another partner.

This is just my experience.

If you find that you need other people in your life, or you want other people in your life, then your relationship has a different dynamic. But it can and does work to be exclusive between the two of you. You both have to want it that way. I don't ever think to myself, "If only I was allowed to have other people," because I don't ever think of anyone else.

If you fell in love with someone (because you can't help who you fall in love with) and that person wanted a monogamous relationship, what would you do then? Would you turn that relationship down? If I fell in love with someone that was a poly, I probably would. Because it's a lifestyle that I think I'd have a hard time dealing with, just as you've stated that monogamy would be difficult for you.

It all depends on what you want out of your life partners, and what love and sex means to you. It's private, it's personal, and most assuredly an individual choice.

I don't think that anyone here is condeming each other's lifestyles, we are all simply saying that we don't understand how the other would choose to live that way when we ourselves have found such happiness and peace in the way we currently live.

It's hard to think of trying something different when you know what makes you happy. Why would you want to change?

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

Pamie:

You asked, "It's hard to think of trying something different when you know what makes you happy. Why would you want to change?". I guess I don't think of myself as poly or mono. I don't know, maybe I can understand choosing to live either way: or rather, I can almost understand it. Hmm, I know I have been in open relationships that were wonderful. And I have been in monogamous relationships that were wonderful, because I didn't want to be with anyone else at the time.But the monogamous relationship that could make me,like, ultimately happy or something just doesn't particularily sound like the way monogamous people describe their relationships. I don't really see that much of a distinction between close friendships and romantic relationships.So I've always felt like, "Hey, if we are going to be in the world and have friends and stuff, then let's not put constraints on the kinds of relationships that we can have with other people." Lately, I have been able to almost feel what it would mean to want to be monogamous in a different way than I have before, and in a way tht feels different to me, from what most people hve been describing. Not just not wanting anyone else, or being, like, repelled about the idea of being with anyone else, but maybe to feel the rightness of being with my love in a way that is fundamentally different, not only from any other romantic relationship I could have, but also any friendship I could have. I guess, for me, relationships are really individual. I can't imagine saying, "Oh, I'm the kind of person who could never be monogamous," or "I'm the kind of person who could never be polyamorous." I understand that some people are like that, but I guess everyone here has been saying, "Oh there are just these two kinds of people who are fundamentally different and can't understand each other" and that's just not really true for me.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

I'm not sure who wrote this, but I'm just here to offer up a quick claification.

"I may be wrong, but I believe Melliebee was saying that because society trains us to believe that polyamory is wrong, we shouldnt do it. Not because its right or wrong, [but because] that's just how it is. My response to that is, if I, or anyone else were to accept that, how would we every progress with anything? Im not saying that polyamory is better than monogamy, but Ill be damned if Ill ever let the status quo affect how I live. If women followed that rule, theyd still be at home raising babies, and thered be no such thing as civil rights. For that matter, all us Americans would be British."

Ok, I think I may not have been as clear as I meant to be. I do not advocate NOT being yourself because of what society would think. I wouldn't tell a gay person to not be gay because "It's not done", and I'm not saying that Poly folks should be mono just becuase "it's not done". I believe that what I was pointing out that I personally do not consider it wrong; nor is that a lifstlye I would choose (and that I believe the majority of people would not choose it either) as a result of societal conditioning. I was not saying that since this isn't a widely accepted practice, no one should practice. I was pointing out that most people wouldn't chose this practice or be able to accept their love choosing this due to their upbringing. I do not say to anyone "society thinks this is bad, don't do it" in regards to anything involving their person. As far as my body and my emotions and my 'self' is concerned, I am the only one who can decide what is appropriate, correct and RIGHT for me. And the same for you. I wouldn't tell a pregnant woman to abort, that's HER body. I wouldn't tell an uncircumcised man to get a chopjob, it's HIS body. And I wouldn't tell a group of 3 persons who chose to love each other that they can't or shouldn't love, as it's THEIR bodies. I do not choose polyamory for myself, due to what I know my own reactions would be to my lover becoming emotionally/physically intimate with someone else. If YOU want to be polyamorous, I wish you much happiness.

Quite frankly, I do NOT believe that monogamy is the best way to go. Did that surprise you? I feel that group marriages are the best form of marriage ever. As far as I can see, marriages are for providing a safe den for the young of the species until they are old enough to fend for themselves, and for conservation of resources (money). That's the basic, ultimate, end goal of marriage. Group "marriages" provide those things, and a great deal of stability and freedom for the members. If a member dies, it does not signal financial ruin. If a member needs to be away from home for business or whatever reason, there are still plenty of mommies and daddies the child(ren) can love and cuddle and be protected by. If for some reason one person can't hack the marriage and wants to leave, the child(ren) still has a full compliment of parents. Not to mention that the more adults in the marriage, the more money is available for the whole group. I wish for myself that I wasn't such a product of my society. I would like to be able to open up to the possibilities of many husbands and many wives and children that are mine that I did not birth. I would like to reject my conditioning that tells me that loving two or more men is "bad" and that my man loving another woman is "really bad" or that my man loving another man is "really really bad". I would like to reject my conditioning and accept love where I find it in all it's forms and rejoice in the love that I share in. Unfortunately, I can't do that, I can't be open to that for myself. If you can somehow accept polyamory and be happy that way, I wish you well.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

I'm polyamorous, and in my situation, that does not equal group sex or living with multiple partners. I live with my husband, and I've been in a relationship with another man for almost a year. My husband has been in a relationship with my boyfriend's partner for the same amount of time (it was surprising when that happened, but it works for us).

Beth wrote:

"Ever heard the saying, "If you have many best friends, you have no friends"? That's certainly not true for everyone, but it's the way I work emotionally. I can only really connect with someone if I feel like it's a special connection, something that isn't shared with anyone else."

The way it works for me is that the connection I feel with one person is very different from the connection I feel with another, so each is special in its own distinct way. I don't feel that my affection for one person dilutes my affection for another. I only have enough time to spend with two partners, to keep the relationships the way I want them to be, so I'm not looking for anyone else. It's a personal matter, deciding how many partners are enough, and how many would be too many.

I wouldn't say that polyamory is superior to monogamy - I just like having the freedom to choose which is better for me.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

Deborah: actually, your phrasing caught my eye, but it was pretty clear that you were being flip, and the rest of your post reinforced that. (Besides, I've read your writing elsewhere and would be awfully surprised if you were suddenly SERIOUSLY advocating that one way is right for everybody!)

It was actually a different post by a different person that got me riled up. I should have made that clear.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 1999

My husband and I are swingers. In my experience, poly people tend to look badly at swingers. But the difference to me is that poly people "love" more than one person at a time, whereas swingers "have sexual relationships with more than one person at a time." Now just in all aspects of life, there are different levels of poly and of swingers. My husband and I are of the level that when we meet another couple that we are attracted to and they are attracted to us, we flirt, we woo, we court them, just as we would if we were single and dating. It's fun. Sometimes we end up fooling around with them, sometimes not. Just like dating. Sometimes we become very close with them and make lifelong friends at that point maybe we'll have sex with them. But the important part of all of that is that in the end, the only person I truly love is my husband and the only person he truly loves is me.

I recently read a book that discusses this and the term "emotional monogomy" was coined. I think that describes us to a tee. I know that I could not handle loving two people, nor could I handle the thought that my husband loved someone else besides me. So in our situation swinging works.

Unfortunately, just as in all lifestyles, there are some people who give swinging and/or poly a bad name. But I still am proud to say I'm a responsible swinger, and having a great time too!

-- Anonymous, April 16, 1999

A few years back, me and Meg were lying in bed.

~

Meg: Mark, can I ask you something?

Me: Of course, dear, what?

Well, I'd like to bring another into our bed . . .

what?!

Well, I feel like we've grown in our love, and now I'd like to take it to another level.

Uh huh.

Well, let me get straight to the point- would you mind it if MacKenzie slept with us?

MacKenzie? . . . .you're serious, aren't you?

Yes, we're very close . . .we slept together before I met you. But . . I'll respect your wishes. Just think about it. It would mean so much to me.

~

Three years later, we have yet to invite MacKenzie into our bed. I hate cats.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 1999

i have a question for you poly people (or for that matter swingers or whatever):

how do you handle protection from std's? if you're in multiple sexual relationships at once, i mean. I know that if I were with more than one person I'd be stressing about who else they might be with and what they're doing and blah blah blah. Do you make potential partners get tested for stuff?

Also...do any of you have children, or plan to at some point in the future? How would you raise that child (communally if you were in multiple relationships?) and/or educate your kid about polyamory?

-- Anonymous, April 19, 1999

For anyone that is interested there is a great article chronicling a poly relationship in last month's Esquire. It definitly got me curious. The way it seemed to work was as a close knit group of people who extended their relationships with sex. Truthfully, it resembled the friendships I've made working in the theater, except that all the sexual tensions are explored openly. sometimes they worked, sometimes they fizzled. At the present I've had too many relationships fizzle because of lack of...interest. Now what if it wasn't all up to one person to fullfill your needs but you were part of a small group shared in the giving and recieving. Not just sex but basic human interests. Doesn't it seem lke it would release the pressure? Or mabey just add to it? I do

-- Anonymous, August 01, 1999

Hmmf!

I presently love:

My life partner Sandra, our son Matthew, a Kreuzberg tabby cat called Thelma and her feline sister Louise, a man called Bryon and his life partner Toni, whom I have known most of the years of my life. A sister called Rosemary and her partner Neville, a brother called Peter, cousins Dot and Helen and Rod and Ruth (that's embarrassingly difficult to deal with), an old woman called Yvonne, and a man I work with called Patrick. And Ian and Jenny, and David and Beth too.

I have loved and wish I still did (because loving is more pleasure than not) a girl called Nancy who had big ears, a girl called Diane who had very tiny ears, a girl called Nellie who almost turned my life upside down but sent the gift back broken, and two people I won't mention now because that hurts.

I would love, if they allowed me, Leah and Marion and Bonnie and Anji and Katja and Amanda and Anja and Amy and Julie, but they are all either spoken for or not apparently interested in the slightest.

Love is like vision. Some things we look at and focus on. Some things we glance at. Everything is there to be seen, some things are there to be noticed.

And some things are so importnat that you would not live without them permanently in view, not ever.

db

-- Anonymous, August 12, 1999