If electricity shuts down, so does our sewage systems. What is the best way and easiest way to close off the toilets and drains to keep the sh*t from entering our homes? How about some plumbers helping us with this problem?

-- Freddie the Freeloader (freddie@aol.com), March 14, 1999

Answers

"I'm not a plumber, nor do I play one on TV", but...

I asked this before, as have others. It depends on your situation. There are inflatable "plugs" which can be inserted into sewer-lines. These plugs are used to pressure-test the lines in your house. The easiest place to place one of these would be if, in your basement, you have a "whole-house-trap". Rather than having only 1 "clean-out" (a single place where you can "snake-out" the sewer line that leaves your house), if you have 2 side-by side "clean-outs" this is probably a whole-house "trap" (traps water in an elbow joint to keep sewer gasses out of your home).

I have noticed in my neighborhood, each house has two access areas in the front-yard for the water company. These are 4" metal plates that stick-up slightly above ground-level. They are held in place with a non-standard bolt (1 is 5-sided, the other inset 4-sided) - not the standard hex-bolt style.

Can anyone comment on the likely-hood that one is to cut-off water going into the house, and the other to cut-off sewer coming out?

If so, any pointers on where to get these non-standard wrenches would be nice.

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous.com), March 14, 1999.

Install them on a hilltop

-- Cranky (cranky@self.org), March 14, 1999.

Plumber, please also address what to do for apt dwellers, multi-story. Help! Heard this will happen. Gross.

-- of all the insults (sewers@backing.up), March 14, 1999.

Call your local water/sewer authority and ask for the person who's fielding questions about Y2K. If there isn't anyone assigned yet, in addition to muzzling your compulsion to scream, ask for the manager or the manager's assistant. Keep calling until you get specifics on your own locality. That's what I did (asking EXTREMELY probing questions) and I am much relieved. No pun intended. Cheers!

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 14, 1999.

If you cant get at your main sewer pipe, could you just block off each drain iindiviually like this:

1. remove toilet, put a piece of plastic or something over the flange, and re-install the toilet (with a new wax seal if needed)

2. remove traps from under sinks and cap the drain pipe.

3 if you can't get to the underside of the bathtub or shower, seal its drain off by putting a piece of plastic or metal over it and sealing with RTV or something?

-- y2kbiker (y2kbiker@bellatlantic.net), March 14, 1999.

Phone Cherne Industries 1 800-the-plug 843-7584 They will give you dealers in your area that carry the inflatable rubber ball.

-- rb (phxbanks@webtv.net), March 14, 1999.

Move to the country; build outhouse on the edge of high cliff, holes overlooking same. Be sure front of outhouse is FIRMLY anchored BEFORE FIRST TRIAL !!! Eagle .... Been there ; seen that !

-- Harold Walker (e999eagle@freewwweb.com), March 14, 1999.

Actually, for most people, I don't think this will be a major problem. For those who have ordinary standard conventional septic systems, it won't be a problem. The effluent from your toilet, sink etc goes downhill by gravity. No electricity involved there.

The same thing applies for most people who are connected to central sewer systems served by treatment plants. MOST of these are gravity systems. In many cases, the sewer pipes connect to pumping stations to continue their journey to the WWTP- these pumping stations generally have emergency generator backups. It would take a prolonged power outage to be a real issue here- weeks for instance.

In some cases however, there are sewer systems which are pressure/vacuum types- these do require power. You probably know if you're on one of these- you likely have a grinder pump for your wastewater, etc- check with your local treatment facility for info if that's the case, but generally, these have emergency generator backup as well.

Now- the only real problem, I think could be people on individual septic systems which are elevated mound systems and require pumping of effluent uphill. You do need power for this- check out a generator for backup. Also- the same thing applies to those with so called innovative/alternative systems such as recirculating sand filters and other nitrogen removal systems- you need power to operate these and you know if you have one- talk to your system engineer if that's the case-

of course to get sewage, you need water to come into your house, but that's a whole other issue. Also- if the power goes down at WWTP's, they do have emergency generator backup systems for the most part, to at least partially treat the sewage. If these fail, they just release the sewage untreated rather than let it back up- of course this means be wary of beaches, shellfishing etc if a major failure, but if in winter, not a major issue for most of us-

-- anita (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), March 14, 1999.

Plumbers know two things. Shit runs downhill and payday's on Friday.

If you are higher than the sewer system outlet(the ususal condition), you don't have anything to worry about. Everything will run downhill.

If you are below the sewer, and use a sewer pump to get to the sewer, the sewer will not back up through your sewer pump(if opering correctly).

If your neighborhood is lower than the sewer outlet and depends on a pump station, the station will be located at the lowest point and will overflow at that point. The pump station will always be at the lowest elevation.

If you are still nervous just on general principles, Put a plumbers "ballony" in the line and pump it up.

You have better(worse) things to worry about.

Hugh

-- hugh (HughGlass2000@hotmail.com), March 14, 1999.

If you are downhill from a pump station, move now.

-- Watchful (seethesea@msn.com), March 14, 1999.

There was a story here in L.A. about a man who sued the city because after a stoppage in the city sewer line, sewage backed up from the street, three feet deep into his living room. He lost the case because the city said his house was in violation of code; he had no backwater valve installed, which the house is required to have per the Uniform Plumbing Code and the city code, IF the house is below the sewer (what Hugh was describing) or even below the curb or street manhole. (Otherwise there is no need for one, and it is not required.)

The man claimed the house was built before the code, but the city said that ignorance of the condition of his house was no excuse!!

I discussed these questions with a plumber friend. He said basically what Hugh said, including "Shit runs downhill, and payday is on Friday" :-) and you have little concern if the house is above the curb (i.e. the street manhole).

It is fairly unusual for a house that requires a backwater valve to not have one, but it happens. What if one was required, was not put in and the inspector forgets to check for it? And what if there is an add-on to a residence that an inspection was never done on, and the rest of the house is above the sewer but the add-on is below the sewer, and happens to need one but it didn't get put in? Then it is possible that water could back up into the house. However, this is not much more likely to happen because of Y2k, than at any other time. He pretty much agreed with what Anita said about the wastewater treatment plants. It is gravity fed "for the most part," qualified because he isn't sure with any particular plant, if there might be some pumping of the line that is powered by pumps that could be affected by an outage. But still, the main concern is the sewage when it gets to the plant. If there is a power outage there, the sewage is either going to be handled by contingency power (backup generators) or failing those, be fed somewhere else such as a beach (yuck) or the L.A. River here (double yuck). Or failing all of that, it would back up into the city streets. The places most at risk from that are the lowest places, right near or around the treatment plant, since sh*t like water, seeks its own level. Right, Watchful! "If you live below a pump station, move now!" You people are replying faster than I can type. By the time I get this written, there'll be no need to post it any more. :-)

If concerned about your house, you should be able to tell if there is a backwater valve, if you think one should have been installed. You should not have to dig to find it, it will be visible if it's there. Per the code, it is to be readily accessible for inspection and repair and "unless continuously exposed, enclosed in a watertight masonry pit, fitted with an adequately sized removable cover."

This is from Uniform Plumbing Code, Section 409.

Disclaimer however: How this Plumbing Code is adapted in different cities, suburbs, or rural areas in different parts of the country he was not sure, but is fairly widely used in the western states. Some areas and peoples don't take so kindly to codes as in California. :-)

A99, are you in San Francisco? My friend said "that sounds like San Francisco" but it is different enough from what he works with here, not to say one way or another if your guess about the two access areas was right.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), March 14, 1999.

Everybody is either forgetting or doesn't understand about lift stations.

Not every part of every town is "uphill" from the sewer treatment plants. In some cases most of the city isn't.

What happens here is that some portion of the city (from as little as one subdivision up to many) will drain all sewage to a common point. At that place a lift station is installed. This device lifts the sewage (by pumping) to a higher elevation. From the higher elevation it can continue it's journey onward. I am familar with one situation where the sewage goes through 8 lift stations before it gets to the treatement plant.

So what's all this have to do with anything? If the lift station downstream from you is not working and people keep making additions to the sewer lines it's gonna come out somewhere. The odds are in your favor that the sewage will come up out of a man hole before is comes up and out in your house. Too many variables to be able to say withour specific distances, elevations, configurations, etc.

Oh yeah, BTW, lift stations are electrically powered.

--Greybear, who installed these systems many, many moons ago.

- Got Bleach?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 15, 1999.