I'm hoping to learn a lesson from history, here. Does anyone know what the banks did when people could not pay their mortgages during the Depression? I know many people lost their homes (of course), but was there a *large* percentage of defaults and if so, how could the banks foreclose on so many? Did they?

When Y2k arrives--and if it arrives the way I think it will--what kind of scenarios will occur? I read somewhere that some people in the '30's were able to buy their homes at low amounts from the bank. Anyone know about this? Any ideas on scenarios?

Thanks. (Just trying to make a decision.)

-- Scarlett (ohara@tara.net), January 17, 1999

Answers

Many people lost their homes through foreclosures. But a great deal of people lost thei homes for non-payment of taxes. That's right. People who owned their homes FREE AND CLEAR lost EVERYTHING because they could not even come up with that tiny tax payment. THAT'S how bad it was.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), January 17, 1999.

In the depression many banks held the mortgages and foreclosed upon default. Today we have something quite different. Most banks don't hold the mortgages; they sell the mortgages to mortgage investors. The banks make their money by efficiently managing the mortgages that they have sold to investors. They need computers to manage thousands of mortgages at a time.

Would someone from the banking industry like to comment on whether the banks have the manpower and the resources to execute a large number of forclosings.

Are the banks motivated to forclose? Will they accept smaller payments in lieu of forclosure?

-- Steven Tomczak (stomczak@tampabay.com), January 17, 1999.

Stephen, I believe that it is (will be) a matter of degree. If you have the only house on the street 120 days past due, you will be gone. If, however, we have a meltdown of the magnitude Mr. Milne predicts, foreclosure would be pointless. Something in between would probably result in some form of settlement based on the post-crash valuation of the asset. The infrastructure, monetary system and government did not collapse in the depression. We are in uncharted waters IMHO.

-- Dave (dwood@southwind.net), January 18, 1999.

Yes, Paul is right about the taxes, and about the foreclosures. The banks DID INDEED take back the homes, regardless of any partial payment, or renegotiation pleas. This is why you could buy homes for so little, the bank owned them and needed to turn them over to get anything they could for them. The tax forecolosures ended up on the auction block right next to the bank foreclosures.

This is one of teh reasons you need to check EVERYWHERE in the house as you put granmama in the nursing home. She has probably got money squirelled away in every little nook or cranny she could find.

cr

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), January 18, 1999.

Again, for general information, I recommend James Dale Davidson and Sir (Lord) William Rees-Mogg, "Blood in the Streets", and "The great Reckoning." Also possibly their "The Sovereign Individual" though I haven't yet read that myself. Also, by Murray Rothbard, title (similiar to) "The Great Depression."

My two cents worth: Recessions and depressions have become more several since a "central bank" (Federal Reserve) was established in 1913 (along with the passing of the so-called "Income Tax" ammendment -- the 16th ammendment).

The object of investing is to buy low and sell high. Each cycle sees, like the planets going around the sun, assets transferred from the weak holders into the hands of the strong.

A weak holder -- owing on a mortgage, for example, can find himself dumped on the street, because he can't keep up the payments. He has paid thousands to the bankers already, plus the bankers get the total asset (house).

Central banking and fiat money (you better know what fiat mney is (search the web) have been implemented in every country in the world so as to increase the power of the power elite and to keep the masses under control. The U.S. experiment in freedom is over.

As to who gets to keep their place and who gets foreclosed, it will be both a matter of criteria like those mentioned above, plus how many physical assets (houses, farms, oil and mining properties, machine tools, etc.) that they (your rulers -- real rulers, not Clinton) can digest during this cycle.

They'll try to digest as much as they can, for the sake of the game, but in no hurry, there's always another cycle.

Hey, if you've got more money than "God" and are not artistic of creative, what else you gonna do?

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 18, 1999.

Forgot to mention about tax related forclosure sales. You think you own your property/home even if your mortgage/TD is paid off? Try not paying your property taxes; you will find out who the real owner is -- the government.

There is a concept called "allodial title" that some of the conservative groups have researched and promoted. This dates back to old English common law, and seems to me a valid concept. The problem is unlawful U.S. Federal (feral), state, and local governments. If you can obatin alloidal title (only can be pursued by those who have paid off the mortgage), you do own the property, not the government. No property taxes (tribute to the lord of the manor). Supposedly the county recorders have two sets of books -- one for tenants (of the government) and the other for (allodial) owners. No URLs (I rent), but allodial is a word that should give you good hits in the search engines.

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 18, 1999.

Try "alloidal" not "allodial"

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 18, 1999.

Scarlett.... I remember the depression well. There was a 3 unit apartment which went for $3000 at austion. There were not as many homeowners then. We rented a house for $7 a month and had a hard time making that small payment. During the war I remember the talk about a fool who bought a house for $5000. everyone knew that he would lose it soon after the war. That was a tremendous price then. I doubt if the mortgage holders want to foreclose on the many houses that will be behind on payments. They would rather you were there than to have it empty and subject to mayhem from the marauders and pillagers.

-- Herbert Johnson (HERB87@JUNO.COM), January 18, 1999.

My Mom often talked about the conditions during the Depression. Her parents had built a house and lived in it while building another house on an adjacent lot. When it was finished, they moved to it and rented out the first house, and felt that they were in a pretty good position. Then came the Depression. They had to keep lowering the rent, until finally it was down to $11.00/mo., and even at that low rent, the people could not afford to pay it.

The Taxes however, continued to accrue. By this time my grandparents were both ill, and Mom had to support the family. She considered herself VERY fortunate to have a job as a telephone operator. After expenses, she had $2.00/mo for her own spending money.

By this time she had gotten behind in the property taxes, and they continued to grow due to penalties and interest. She was not allowed to pay "this" year's taxes, until prior year's taxes and penalties were paid in full, so it was almost an insurmountable problem. In the end, Mom lost the rented house, and was only able to hold on to the other home by EXTREME thrift and luck.

Her Aunt had gone into the Depression with a good deal of cash, since her husband had recently died and she recieved a fairly nice insurance settlement. As the prices of property plummeted, she began to buy apartment buildings, using the rents from one to finance the purchase of the next. She was considered VERY wealthy......for awhile. Soon the tennants were unable to pay their rents, and therefore she was unable to pay the mortgages and taxes. In the end, she lost it all.

My Mom DRILLED it into our heads as we were growing up to STAY OUT OF DEBT at all costs!

How will Y2K be different than the Depression? Well, it seems to me that both the banks (or rather, mortgage holders) and the Government will be "out of commission" for awhile, and there is a good chance that many, if not most, records will dissappear. There will be major civil disruptions unlike the '30's. Large portions of the cities will be destroyed by riots, looting, fires etc. I imagine that when the dust settles, "ownership" will most likely be determined by "possession", at which time we will begin to slowly rebuild a "system".

I happened to watch the movie Dr. Zhivago the other night, and this time I saw it with much different eyes. At the beginning, the central characters lived in luxury, but before long were reduced to living (?) in squalor, the entire family allotted only one small room in the large mansion. Dr. Zhivago had to go out and pillage fence boards to provide wood for the fire..... It's true that it was political upheaval that brought their world crashing down around them rather than what we are facing, but I imagine the end result will be very similar. Y2K will be the great equalizer, not allowing anyone to remain "rich" or living in "luxury" while those around them suffer. I expect that we will either willingly share our homes, heat and food with others, and try to survive as a group, or we will be forced to share. I don't agree with some posters who speak of defending their preparations with guns....not that I don't think they have the "right" to, I just don't believe its possible. Certainly they may be able to defend for awhile, but sooner or later they will run out of ammo, or be overcome...

Just some of my gloomy thoughts this morning.......

Sheila

-- Sheila (sross@bconnex.net), January 18, 1999.

My father has often told the story how they almost lost the family farm during the Depression, when he was a young man. During the late 20s, when times were good, my grandfather cosigned for my uncle to buy a small farm and get started in the dairy business. After the Depression hit, the lien holder was ruthless in foreclosing on the loan, with the end result that my uncle lost his farm and my grandfather very nearly lost his farm as well.

Obviously, the sheriff sale only brought a fraction of what the original purchase price of the farm had been, meaning my grandfather had to pay off the balance of the loan. Since they could hardly get anything for their crops by then, they really struggled to pay off the loan so they could avoid losing everything. Potatos, a cash crop they used to raise, sold for as little as a nickel a peck delivered to market. According to Dad, there were some years when they let them rot, because the cost of delivering them to Pittsburgh or Cumberland was more than what they could get for them. When you grow up like that, the fear of poverty tends to hang over you your whole life like the sword of Damocles.

-- Tom Knepper (thomas_knepper@intuit.com), January 18, 1999.

The above stories of foreclosure and loss are just a few of millions of such stories.

You are tenants on the government plantation. Don't you forget it.

The 1930s depression saw one of the most tremendous transfers of wealth (from weak hands to strong) in the history of this nation.

It won't do you any good to be out of debt or not, if your income is not sufficient to pay your tribute (taxes) to your lords (government).

Allodial (alloidal?) may or may not be the solution. Better might be trashing of govco computers and backups. Whatever, but "business as usual" isn't going to protect you.

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 18, 1999.

If enough records are corrupted or lost, it'll be very difficult to foreclose on very many people. I personally, will offer gold or silver to pay off the place, and I'll take my chances.

If someone wants to forclose on the place, and it's because of Y2k related problems, I'll just burn the place down rather than let them get it. "You want to steal my place, huh? I'll just burn it, and you can confiscate ashes. Or we can work a deal. What'll it be?"

You get the idea.

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), January 18, 1999.

Oh, OK, gold or burn it down? We'll get right back to you.

Knock knock

Who's there?

Sheriff's deputy, open up now or we bust in the door.

Yes officer?

Come with us.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 18, 1999.

No one knows if we may get depression or hyperinflation but one of the reasons Hitler gained power:

"For example in January 1921, the wage of a worker was about two and one-half marks per hour. Ten months later this rose to fifty marks. By April 1923, this wage rose to one thousand two hundred marks. By October of that same year this exploded to twenty-five million marks. Twenty-five million marks per hour. Karl Schmaelzle of Boennigheim had contracted to build a three-story house and when he was finished he was paid. For building this house, his reward could only buy one carpenters pencil. A three-story masonry and stucco house for one pencil. A deal like that could get people a little excited and make them look for scapegoats. They needed scapegoats because the perpetrators of such deals always stayed in hiding. "

-- TTF (seeit@ww2.com), January 18, 1999.

BTW Bill, you signed a note when you bought your house, if you do not pay, YOU are the thief. Not the bank.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 18, 1999.

All:

Yes, you signed a note (mortgage/TD loan) when you "bought" your house.

Did you really receive anything? The bank created the loan out of nothing and You get to pay the "loan" as a result of your work. Let's see how this balances:

Bank -- a few hours of paperwork and some keystrokes.

You -- 30 years of work.

One thing you all can do, is to educate yourself on the nature of banking -- especially fractional reserve banking -- and monetary systems and money and credit.

On the other end of Y2K, if we have to rebuild, it would alleviate a lot of problems to have an honest money and banking system.

Check out the article at following URL for a lucid introduction.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/parks122598.html

(I don't want to screw up the tag for the link, so just highlight it. press ctrl-c then click up on browser "location" window and press ctrl-v)

also for "electronic gold payment system

http://www.e-gold.com

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 19, 1999.

Did you really receive anything? The bank created the loan out of nothing and You get to pay the "loan" as a result of your work. Let's see how this balances:

Bank -- a few hours of paperwork and some keystrokes.

You -- 30 years of work.

Please help me out here if Im wrong (which Im not) but didnt you get a HOUSE out of the deal? Did you not sign that note to avoid paying endless rent, or to avoid living in a cardboard box? Was there a gun at your head?

I would like to thank both Bill and Seer for excellent A#1 examples of the screwed up Its not my fault kind of thinking that has turned this country into the nanny welfare state that it has become today. Hey guys, does the buck ever stop at your door? Or is there always someone else to blame?

A plague on both your houses.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 19, 1999.

Deedah,

I INTEND to pay my mortgate payments. If both the wife and I both lose our jobs because our employers were stupid and weren't prepared for Y2k, how is that my fault? I intend to have at least 6-8 months of mortgage money saved up(and have already 4), but that may not be enough in a prolonged crisis. Hard to make $800 payments when you're scrounging for odd jobs, post Y2k, fella. Welfare nannystate, eh? I'm willing to work hard, but I like to keep what I earned, rather than give it over to the nannystate, thanks. If I didn't make any Y2k preps, I could have had 1 year worth of payments saved, but it'd been moot at that point, not having food and supplies.

I don't want anyone to take care of me, or to take advantage of anyone, so stick that in your pipe, guy.

But, faced with the prospect of being forced out into the cold, post Y2k, with gangs roving around killing, and no jobs, and no prospects of being able to find a place to stay for awhile, and little food or supplies, because it all wouldn't fit into our 2 cars, why not put up a fight? Not much to lose at that point.

The mortgage company will get their money, it may just be a bit late.

I doubt that they will be able to have accurate records anyways, but we'll see.

A plague on your house, too, fella.

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), January 19, 1999.

Bill,

You didn't HAVE to go to the bank. You could have gone direct to the builder and paid 100% up front.

or

you could have gone to the builder and negotiated the terms of payment so they were similar to the bank.

All the bank did is enable you to buy a house you could NOT afford to buy with cash up front, and it facilitated the builder in being able to build another house fairly soon, rather than having to pay his suppliers out of your monthly payments.

All in all, a Fair Exchange, to me.

Just sign me "20 years in to a 30"

-- Nah, don't think so (who@we.kidding), January 19, 1999.

Well, at least ONE of you has the guts to reply, so I ratchet you back up a notch.

If both the wife and I both lose our jobs because our employers were stupid and weren't prepared for Y2k, how is that my fault?

That is not your fault, but paying the note is still your RESPONSIBILITY.

Hard to make $800 payments when you're scrounging for odd jobs, post Y2k, fella.

Agreed. Im in the same boat as you are, and I am not talking out my ass. I too am saving what I can, while prepping as best I can and I agree that it really sucks looking at the possibility of losing my abode. It does not aid my sleeping habits one little bit. Life isnt fair at all.

But, faced with the prospect of being forced out into the cold, post Y2k, with gangs roving around killing, and no jobs, and no prospects of being able to find a place to stay for awhile, and little food or supplies, because it all wouldn't fit into our 2 cars, why not put up a fight? Not much to lose at that point.

Still cant figure how burning down your house contributes anything positive to that scenario, other than venting blind anger at an institution that did what you asked of it, lend you money for a home.

Should things reach such a low point and you are headed for the street, would it be better, maybe, to at least have your HONOR intact at that point?

I value mine.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 19, 1999.

The bank, through the magic of fractional reserve banking and bookkeeping magic between the U.S. Treasury, the Federal Reserve System and banks, and the local bank create the "dollars" out of thin air. They then "loan" you this money, which you have to pay back -- with interest -- for you to pay the builder or previous owner.

Question: Why can't YOU just create the money yourself to pay the builder or previous owner? That would be dishonest, you say? That would be you creating money out of nothing? What the frick do you think is happening with this banking system.

Remember, EGTTTS (everything government touches turns to shinola), including money and credit.

Read the links I posted above, before you make inane comments about crybabies or whatever re the loans.

Other than that, I usually find your comments at least interesting, if not valuable.

-- Unca Deedah (seer@fin.com), January 19, 1999.

I screwed up to and from in post above. should be

to: Unca Deedah

from: seer

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 19, 1999.

seer

With all due respect, if it is indeed fake and phony 'money' which is used by the controlling order to keep us downtrodden, I would suggest that you do not borrow any when you buy your house.

If I borrow from you, you expect repayment, as would I expect repayment if you borrowed from me. That is a simple, basic concept understandable by all but the most juvenile of children.

Replacing an individual with an entity does not change the principal involved in the above example. Keep your promise or abide by the pre- determined penalty. No amount of mental gymnastics about the legitimacy of the capital involved in the transaction changes the need to honor agreement between the parties involved, even if it hurts oneself to do so.

I stand by my statement, and by my word. Sadly, that is becoming an outdated ideal.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 19, 1999.

I actually have to agree with Uncle Deedah here. Burning down a house contributes nothing. It destroys work and it destroys produce. It takes away from the sum of human existence.

In any case, I doubt the bank will have the records of who owes what, come y2k.

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 19, 1999.

Uncle Deedah:

OK, I won't borrow the money; I'll just write a check (creating money out of thin air) and give it to the builder/previous owner.

That sound strange to you? -- That's how the banking system and the Treasury does it -- they "write paper" to each other, creating money out of thin air -- then they "loan" it to you.

I repeat, educate yourself if you'r going to comment on the subject of money and credit. Follow the links I posted above, for starters. Then, if you want to "moralize", make sure you've got the right target.

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 20, 1999.

The big bad uglies aside, do you agree with me that one should repay what one borrows?

Pretty simple to me.

Let us say for the sake of arguement that you are right. Fiat money is akin to Monopoly money.

SO WHAT! If I borrow your Monopoly money, should I not pay it back?

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 20, 1999.

Uncle Deedah et al,

You come across as a very trustworthy individual - a man of honour.

You are exactly the type of individual a userer (i.e. a Bank) would want to lend money to. You are a sure bet, the systems in place have done a good job - and these guys know how to play a very very good game. Plese, Unc, listen to what I have to say and educate yourself a little. No offence intended, but you do not understand what is going on - I'm sorry.

Seer - he/she knows exactly what is going on, as do I, and many others. I wonder how many reading/contributing to this thread do?

Please - do all of yourselves a favour and read "The Robot's Rebellion" by David Icke. This is simply an excellent introduction - If you want to delve into things more deeply of course you can, this book will give you a solid grounding.

Take the time to learn the history of banking.

Take the time to learn what fiat money is.

Take the time to learn what fractional reserve banking is all about.

Take the time to learn how the FED and IRS were created.

Take the time to learn what is going on in the monetary world in which we live.

I'm really fed up listening to ignorant (as in the sense that they don't know what they are talking about) people pontificate, I just want to tell them tshut the f##k up and do a little more research, stop falling into the easy traps that are all over the place.

Parting shot - don't care how old you are, what your background is, what you've done, - unless you are aware of the con game that has enslaved humanity since time immemorial then you're just another pleb, another peon to be exploited.

Let's have a little more awareness - puhleeez!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 20, 1999.

Oh Christ Andy!

I enjoyed your posts, but now, alas, you are in the shitter with all of the other lamenters of "It's unfair to pay back what you borrowed"

I am right on this issue, no ifs ands or but(thead)s.

PS, yes I am a man of honor, what are you?

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 20, 1999.

Leo,

I can assure you, the banks will have the records all right, they just might not be able to access them for some unknown length of time. The one thing that all institutions of any size do is religiously make backup copies of all important data, with offsite, long-term storage. You can bet that every operations center in the world will be doing a full system backup the weekend of 1/1/2000.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), January 20, 1999.

I find it very telling (and distressing) that NOT ONE OF YOU SHITS HAS SAID YES, PAY BACK WHAT YOU BORROW!

Fucsa matta witchu?

Can I borrow your tools?

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 20, 1999.

Oh yeah, and what about when the "system" doesn't pay back what WE lend IT, but instead hangs a millstone around our necks and the neacks of our children.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), January 20, 1999.

Care to elaborate Nathan? Got a little Rage against the machine going on? (Cant say as I blame you, lifes a bitch, and then you die, I cannot offer a perfect solution. Although I do understand the feelings of being pissed at those in power because of their incompetence)

Thank you Jesus that these fellows are not my neighbors, whether they are GI or DGI or even DWGI.

I will take, and band with, an honest DGI over the above examples of GI THIEVES any day o the week, thank you very, very much.

What is that saying about honor among thieves?

Dont bother answering, because there is none.

PS, can I borrow your socket set?

I'll give it back, honest.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 20, 1999.

"Oh Christ Andy! I enjoyed your posts, but now, alas, you are in the shitter with all of the other lamenters of "It's unfair to pay back what you borrowed"

I am right on this issue, no ifs ands or but(thead)s.

PS, yes I am a man of honor, what are you?"

Whaddaya mean "enjoyed" as in past tense???!!!

I'll pass on that :)

C'mon Uncle, I took great pains to try not to offend you or anyone else reading this. I'm just pointing out that there is a very clever game being played out - and, from your response, you are totally unaware of it.

So your response is natural and I take no umbrage. If anyone lends me tools, they get them back, pronto. If they are damaged, I replace them with new ones. I respect my friends and family and follow the golden rule. However, when it comes to Banks and the like I will still play their game, grudgingly, because I am still in the system, and have to play by their rules. But I will NOT respect the bank. The bank is part of a system that is designed to feed off workers, like you and me, for their ill-gotten gains.

This does not preclude me from understanding what is going on. I am extremely aware, even if 99% of the population are not.

Again, read David Ickes's books as a start, and come back to us all on this subject in a month or so. I guarantee you will have a different outlook on the world.

BTW I *always* repay what I've borrowed. And I have lent, and not have had returned in my lifetime a great many things. So it goes.

Finally I am a man of honour - I tell it like it is - I don't "kiss ass" as they say over here - this is my definition - it must be working 'cause I've been fired or pissed off asshole bosses more than once :)

Unc - check out David Icke online realaudio on Art Bell.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 20, 1999.

No rage here. Just stating the facts. Read a history book now and then, just for fun. The suttle screw is the best of all, don't you agree?

Feels "so right" to be condemned by the self-righteous...

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), January 20, 1999.

Uncle Deedah:

I imagine most people receiving a bank loan (not a loan from another peon like themselves) would like to pay back exactly what they borrowed -- a bookkeeping entry created out of thin air.

But they aren't allowed to do that -- create money out of thin air -- like the banks are allowed to do.

Why do they have that privilege and you don't. Who appointed them "god" and not you? (Hint, the government.)

I've heard the author (Ickes) of the book ("The Robot's Rebellion") that Andy recommended. Very knowledgeable and articulate. The book probably would be an interesting and informative read for all of us.

IN THE MEANTIME, READ THE LINKS I POSTED ABOVE BEFORE ANY MORE MORALIZING ABOUT HOW WE PEONS ARE ESSENTIALLY THE CROOKS.

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 20, 1999.

Just a coupla things to think about.

Forget y2k for the moment.

They say that the pension money you've been paying in to the system won't be enough to pay all the pensioners in 20xx.

Pensioners may have to work to the age of 70 to collect their hard-earned money.

The latest plan is to have all pension money be invested in the stock market - this is the greatest Ponzi scheme yet suggested!! Who do you think is going to benefit???

Those fat cats able to manipulate the markets. The USUAL suspects!!!

One of the main reasons the Dow is so high now is all the pension money in mutual funds.

What an absolute SCAM on Joe Q. Public.

Wait for the Dow to collapse and JQP to lose it's collective shirt.

P.S.

Don't even get me started about the depression, how it was created, who suffered, who came out on top, the origins of WW II, who suffered, who benefited (many US companies dealing with the NAZIS throughout and preceeding the "war"), the complicity of Switzerland etc. etc.

Do some research folks, read the books!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 20, 1999.

Do not give me any of this HORSESHIT that it is OK to STEAL from the banks. You are showing yourselves to be bigger idiots than I am accused of being.

IF THE BANKERS ARE CROOKS, DO NOT DO BIDNESS WITH THEM!

IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO PAY BACK PHONY MONOPOLY MONEY, DO NOT BORROW IT!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 20, 1999.

Shit, it ain't late it's early, try this:

TO ALL OF YOU,

Do not give me any of this HORSESHIT that it is OK to STEAL from the banks because you do not agree with the way that they do bidness. You are showing yourselves to be bigger idiots than I am accused of being. (by yall)

IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THE BANKERS ARE CROOKS, DO NOT DO BIDNESS WITH THEM!

IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO PAY BACK PHONY MONOPOLY MONEY, DO NOT BORROW IT!

IF YOU DIPSHITS ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THE EVILS OF THE SYSTEM, YOU WOULD HAVE NO DEALINGS WITH IT, AND THIS CONVERSATION IS THEN MOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now on individual rants,

Nathan,

If it feels so right to be condemned by the self righteous, perhaps that is because it strikes the deep-seated sense of fairness left within you. Borrow, then pay back. Simple lesson, no?

Seer,

Dont give me any of that fucking voodoo economics horseshit youve been sucked into, if YOU borrow some of their (the banks) created out of thin air nonsense fiat money, pay it back as agreed. Do not try to weasel your way out of YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to live up to your word of honor. (although, after reading your responses to this thread, I wonder if you know what honor means, blinded as you are by your hatred of the status quo) You have yet to agree with me that one should pay back what one borrows, in my mind that makes you a lowly thief.

Andy

Your response makes the least sense of all. You say that you return borrowed tools pronto, and I respect that, being a man who makes his living using tools. You say that you do not respect the bank and only grudgingly play their game. OK, that is fine, but if you want out of that game dont borrow mortgage money from them (not paying your mortgage was the start of all of this arguing) If you deal with crooks (your take) do not cry when the crooks want their just desserts. Shit man, try borrowing from real crooks, see where your semantics get you. (Busted bones)

It is late, I work, gnite all!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 20, 1999.

Uncle Deedah:

If someone lends me a tool, I pay back with the (same) tool. Unless I bust it, in which case, a replacement tool.

The bank "loan" is a bookkeeping entry (credit) they get (make) for free. So, why should I have to pay them in (even) "monopoly money", why can't I pay them with a bookkeeping entry (credit) that I create. "payment in kind."

The whole idea of my posting all this is that if TEOTWAWKI, some of you may be educated enough in this area to influence the establishment of an honest money and credit system if and when things ever get going again on a large enough scale to need something more than barter.

As in Y2K, in the financial area, there are GIs and DGIs. In the banking/credit area, you are a DGI. I'm not going to bother making or answering any more posts unless you can quote something from the gold eagle site to me and make a reasoned argument against it.

I look forward to your posts on other subjects where your views and opinions seem somewhat more informed.

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 20, 1999.

Unc' has the high ground on this one. Centralized banks are indeed based upon greed, graft and usury and in this U.S.of A. they are unequivocally immoral and UNCONSTITUTIONAL. However, those facts in no way release us from any agreement that we might make with them. Having studied this subject for many years I can understand the anger and resentment some of you feel, but the bottom line is our word must be our bond.

Most of us agree that the one positive result of these upcoming potential problems, is an opportunity to rebuild and "do it better". If those who do survive don't commence the rebuilding process with truth, character, honor and principle as the foundation, the efforts to do so will be in vain.

c

-- c (c@c.c), January 20, 1999.

Trust me Uncle, order the book from the library, buy it, give it to a friend, you will not regret doing so.

It's all a very very sophisticated game, which has been honed to perfection over the centuries - very few people have any clue what I'm talking about, but it is extremely relevant to all of us.

Too detailed to go into now so I'll say nighty night too.

Later, Andy

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 20, 1999.

Folks:

< sprinkler system >

When one does business with the Devil, or a snake, how the Devil or snake comports him/itself does NOT absolve the person entering into the agreement from completing the agreement, so long as the snake/Devil has NOT ABROGATED HIS/ITS side of the agreement. I am fully aware that, when I go into my Bank or Credit Union and borrow funds, I am borrowing YOUR funds. You are lending me, through the good offices of the CU or Bank, your money. I am also aware that, if I were to have a significant quantity of money in either institution, it will be loaned out to others like me. Does this change my desire to withdraw my funds? No.

Does this change my understanding of how the banking system helps me to acquire things? no.

I understand that I am asking my bank/cu to invest my money for me. My bank and CU have chosen to invest my money, for a rate of return which may or may not be "fair" by loaning it to someone else. This gives me a minor rate of return, and the bank a portion of the return.

This also means, that if I want my money back, we may have to call your loan, should you slip past the due date of a payment. Or, if you want your money back, my loan may have to be called. OOPSIE!

Is there a better way? Perhaps. Maybe the current Japanese model, where the individual gets to pay the bank to watch his money. Though, remember, if this model is selected, the impact will be enormous. Your company won't be upgrading their equipment really soon, unless they are able to put a lot of money away to pay cash for whatever equipment they need. Your company won't be increasing their production as they will be paying cash, not revolving credit for supplies.

Your credit card will no longer work, and EVERYTHING you want to buy will have to be paid for by cash savings. Try saving $25,000 to buy your next truck!!

But, back to the point. As an honorable individual, having entered into an agreement in good faith, unless the other side of the agreement has abrogated their responsibilities, you are honor and duty bound to live up to the agreement. Period. There can be no further rational discussion of this point. Always assuming that one understands the concepts of duty, honor, and the strength of one's word or oath.

CR

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), January 20, 1999.

< /sprinkler system >

Bad Habbitts die hard.

cr

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), January 20, 1999.

Seems to me Andy and Seer are simply pointing out the fake, ludicrous and fleecing ways of banks, empowered by the gov. They are right in that each citizen has a duty to understand their schemes. Uncle and Chuck are right in that each citizen has a duty to honor his/her word, contract, whether they know or don't know about the banks/gov. schemes. Ignorance is never an excuse, even when dealing with the Devil. We sign our name, we're bond by it. There's no hope for society otherwise. But as Chuck said, if we're aware of the fraudulent bank schemes and refuse to take part of it, we're left with saving our cash under our matresses, each paycheck. Hundreds of thousands of it for a house, thousands for a car etc. So what's our choices? 1. stash the cash 2. go along with the scheme 3. Rebel, borrow and don't pay back, live in fear with the gov. at your tail 4. Rebel, vote the thieves/schemers out of office.

Too many choices for too many sheeple. Things can't change unless something cosmic happens to knock some sense into people.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 20, 1999.

I think that Chris has put it as well as anyone could. I mean, what next, its OK to steal money from drug dealers, since the money was illegally acquired in the first place?

"Two wrongs don't make a right."

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), January 20, 1999.

Seer

You borrowed "money made out of thin air" to purchase a house, and agreed that if you were unable to repay the loan with "money made out of thin air" you would repay with THE HOUSE. It's a very simple concept!

Your attitude reminds me of some of our tennants who agree to pay X dollars a month for the use of OUR building, but soon decide that they are only responsible to pay IF they have any $'s left after purchasing the things they want each month. If they lose THEIR job, it becomes completely reasonable to them that WE should do without OUR income.

Amazing how we humans can justify things to ourselves.

-- Sheila (sross@bconnex.net), January 20, 1999.

Not to mention the fact that these lenders allow you THIRTY YEARS to repay them. Pretty damn nice of them ain't it? THIRTY YEARS to repay a loan. Half the investors that pooled your loan together won't even be alive at maturity to reap the rewards of loaning YOU money. Sounds like a deal for the borrower to me.

my .02

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 20, 1999.

Uh...Deano you must not own a 30 year mortgage or you wouldn't say that. On a $1000. monthly payment, $800 of it goes to interest payment. The first 3/4 of the loan period you pay the interest only (2/3 or 1/4 not sure but close to it.) If you stashed your money under the matress instead and saved until you had enough money to buy the house, your money would not have devalued as much as with getting a 30 year mortgage.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 20, 1999.

Did anyone ever find any documents on "alloidal title"? I've only found two, and both dealt with Scottish land law. AltaVista never heard of it.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), January 20, 1999.

Chris - True statement. That's how loans amortize. Pay the 'lender fees' up front (so to speak) then pay the loan off. Question - where is that matress located that your stuffing money under to buy a house?

Here's a little known fact - you can make ONE (extra) principal payment per year (on a 30 year loan) and turn it into a 20 year loan at the 30 year rate. Saves thousands over that last 10 years.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 20, 1999.

Thanks, Deano! Glad someone finally brought that up. We paid off our 30 year mortgage in 15 years. Works great! Saves you thousands!

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), January 20, 1999.

Well, it's plain the noble "system" has done a very nice job of legitimizing itself in the eyes of the many, and that is very much as one would expect. Few in their right minds would go along quietly if they believed otherwise.

Some minor points:

Of course, it goes without saying, honor your obligations, but also know how, to whom, and to what you have obliged yourself.

Cars wouldn't cost $25,000 if there weren't fractional reserve banking, nor would houses cost $150,000+. They would be much cheaper both in nominal and real terms.

When you borrow $100 from the bank, perhaps $2 came from depositors. The rest, as they say, was "created out of thin air", for the express purpose of placing liens on real property and then collecting an income stream from said property in the form of interest payments. If the interest payments default, the real property - houses, businesses, cars, boats, etc., revert to the bank, which then re-sells these items (for which they paid nothing) into the open market, recouping its "losses" on next to nothing.

When the banks screw up, despite all their advantages(!), we are "allowed" to continue to honor our agreements. The banks however, in the US at least, either disappear along with your money (a la The Great Depression) and foreclose on their collateral, or they petition for government bailout (a la the S&L Scandal) the cost of which is paid, ultimately, by taxpayer dollars. This is an "improvement" over the Depression Era way of handling things in that, not only do you lose your house and/or car after paying years of interest, but you and your children are "obliged" to pay the cost of the bailout, through increased taxation, through unnecessarily higher interest rates due the growth in the national debt, or both.

Be advised that no fiat currency has ever survived. Be further advised that no fractional banking scheme has ever survived intact, either.

Learn before condemning.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), January 20, 1999.

Nathan

Attaboy!

-- z (z@zz.top), January 20, 1999.

Well -- one more post -- not arguing a point, but reiterating the reason I got into this thread.

c (c@c.c) said:

"Most of us agree that the one positive result of these upcoming potenntial problems, is an opportunity to rebuild and "do it better". If those who do survive don't commence the rebuilding process with truth, character, honor and principle as the foundation, the efforts to do so will be in vain."

Yes, and I include an honest, principled monetary system as part of that rebuilding. BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE AN HONEST MONEY AND CREDIT SYSTEM UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT ONE IS. AND UNTIL YOU REALIZE THE ESSENTIAL DISHONESTY AND FRAUD THAT THE CURRENT FRACTIONAL RESERVE FIAT MONEY SYSTEM IS

Again, I beseech you to at least read one little on-line article --

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/parks122598.html

if not the book "The Robot's Rebellion" by David Icke (recommended by Andy.

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 20, 1999.

OK seer, I've read the article at the above URL. Our money is created out of thin air, and is worth less than the paper it is printed on. (since the paper it is printed on cannot now be used for other purposes)

I still say that when you deal with the devils, and put your John Hancock on the dotted line, you must abide by your word. If you cannot, for what ever reason, repay the phoney money in kind, and have agreed to use the house as collateral, YOU are a crock if you burn it down to avoid keeping your word.

Time to move on to other things.

PS, I very much regret calling y'all names last evening, but you see, it's Paul Milne's fault. Hee hee ;)

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 20, 1999.

Errr...that should say 'crook'

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 20, 1999.

Uncle, I will come to your rescue! Did anyone of the above posters consider "mortgage backed securities"? These bonds (most backed by Uncle Sam) are sold in bulk to "investors" wanting a slightly higher yield than govt.securities. Your monthly mortgage payment goes to your grandma with a money market account at Merrill Lynch not your local Wells Fargo branch. Banks do not hold the bag any more, they sell you mortgage at a discount to Wall Street. They make their money by charging you 7% and selling it at 6.5%, plus a little bit for collecting payments from everyone.

If you plan to "stiff" the bank because they create money out of thin air, you are wrong. The ones you are ripping off, are the millions of people whom knowingly or unknowingly own mortgage backed securities. The lending you are talking about is the kind banks do to local businesses and personal lines of credit. Yes, I know what a scam the fed is, yes I know about fractional reserve banking, yes I know "money" is as good as the paper it is printed on, but your home mortgages (unless a bank portfolio product) are at Wall Street not Main Street.

If you sign on the line, you have an obligation to pay. If you can't the house is not yours to keep.

I could rant about property taxes, but I will save that for another post. Suffice to say, I am in agreement about property taxes.

-- Bill (bill@microsoft.com), January 20, 1999.

Jack, when I read your comment about stealing from drug dealers since their money is aquired illegally, I laughed to myself. Isn't that precisely what your government has enabled itself to do with the seizure laws that they have in place? If you don't believe two wrongs make a right, I hope you campaigned against that law!

And to get even further off topic, but in keeping with the general notice of banks... Today we got a letter from our church. The electronic option they planned to have for parishioners who wanted to give that way, is not going to be an option after all because the banks computers are not Y2K compliant (like they had said they would be), and the church computers are. To make life even more interesting, this is the same bank that we have our mortgage from. I'm hoping that it's fortunate that we owe them more than they owe us, although I plan to repay them, as promised (maybe even before hand - we're supposed to be mortgage free Feb 2001). To add to the interesting stuff, I was assured last summer that our bank had finished fixing and was now in the testing phase, and that things were proceeding on time for compliance by Dec 1998, nor have I had any indication from the bank that this is no longer so. When you sup with the devil, you need a looong spoon!

-- Tricia the Canuck (jayles@telusplanet.net), January 21, 1999.

Uncle - no problemo - as for the book, most of it is history, religion, sociology, politics, spirituality - NOT the sort of things you are taught at school. A real breath of fresh air, with detailed sources and quotes etc.

Joe-Bob says check it out :)

Andy

Two digits. One mechanism. The smallest mistake.

"The conveniences and comforts of humanity in general will be linked up by one mechanism, which will produce comforts and conveniences beyond human imagination. But the smallest mistake will bring the whole mechanism to a certain collapse. In this way the end of the world will be brought about."

Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, 1922 (Sufi Prophet)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 21, 1999.

This is a pretty good link for starters. See chapter on 1930's.

an age old scam

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 21, 1999.

Good one, Andy

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 24, 1999.

It's a classic, easily understood. Glad to see that the text has been posted on the web. Glad you came across it and posted location

Thanks again, Andy. You listening, Uncle Deedah, and the rest of you financial DGI's? If you survive the other side of Y2K, you gonna let a new crop of bankers screw you over all again?

-- seer (seer@fin.com), January 24, 1999.

I am not a fan of the Fed or fiat money, but the article you referenced is flawed. The "National Debt" is held by any one owning T-Bonds or T-Bills. Granted the banks own quite a few, but so do money market funds, individual investors and people in ever nation on earth. The interest paid on those bonds goes to all types of people and businesses. Granted the banks make a spread on the interest charged and the interest paid, and with trillions involved that is a big number. But they don't get all the interest paid on national debt or mortgage debt. The biggest crime is charging 10% on small business loans and personal lines of credit and paying depositors 2% on their deposits. Plus you add in the ability to leverage those deposits, and then you are talking about a scam of huge proportions! Borrow at .0005% and lend at 10%+, that is a crime. However, with home mortgages, T-bonds and other securitized debts, the holders of the paper get the bulk of the interest.

I belive gold and silver have a place in everyones portfolio, along with rice, canned hams, toilet paper, ammo,.... and other stores of value. Paper fiat money could become even more worthless, if they try to print their way out of this crisis. Inflation benifits the debtor, and who is the biggest debtor in the world? Uncle Sam!

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), January 24, 1999.

Classic thread. Kickin' it up a notch.

Couldn't knock Unc off his soapbox no how no way! LOL!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), August 09, 1999.

Thanks Bingo for pointing out how Milne just twists the facts to support his own demented view. The gov sells the property to any bidder for the taxes owed. The original owners have three years to come up with the taxes (plus interest) to get their property back. It goes on all the time, nothing new here.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), August 09, 1999.