"Russians Bank on Bartering"

Page 1 article, Los Angeles Times, Monday, 199 Dec 28.

Some paraphrased highlights. My comments in []:

12-oz cans of meat are as good as cash... like the dollar here. [Think SPAM]

Estimated 70% of economy is barter.

Academic and government economists denigrate it.

Complex trades can involve more than half a dozen companies and span thousands of miles.

...brokers now search the internet for firms with something to trade. [At least they still have the internet and power to run the computers]

Manure is sometimes used. Natural fertilizer for home garden plots.

Many companies have at least one barter specialist whose job it is to find trading partners and put together swaps. [A post-millennial job opportunity?]

Works best for low and medium tech articles.

Much more, hope you can get the article. URL is WWW.LATIMES.COM but I haven't tried it.

Bottom Line: THINK SPAM

-- Mr. B (b@b.b), December 28, 1998

Answers

More TP !

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 28, 1998.

Because we are known for the land of plenty, I'm willing to bet that anyone who reads this post has never gone hungry. This is all the more reason to believe that what is happening around the world can happen to us. The name of the game is survivial. No matter what level of social staus you are in, you are fighting to survive. Bartering items are good to have, but if you already have everything you need why barter? You may need those bartering items for your own surival when everything you have to survive on runs out. If someone comes to you asking for a roll of TP, how long will your TP stash last? I have changed my opinion about bartering. If I am not ready and prepared for a 2-year surivival, and I have to rely on bartering, then I am not ready for what is to come. Don't depend on other people to come through because we will fail each other.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 28, 1998.

Well said, bardou. At the same time, lets not forget good old fashioned cash, at least until it is no longer accepted. Remember: even in a worst case scenario, when TSHTF, it will still take a while for people to realize that its Game Over, and so for a limited time (weeks? months?) cash will be king. Have plenty!!!

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), December 28, 1998.

The Free(cash)Market has been alive in the US for a ling time...some call it black market,...some call it underground economy...come back when you've done your homework on alternative markets in the US.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), December 28, 1998.

Donna: We all at some time or another participated in the underground economy, i.e. garage sales, flea markets, bartering skills for skills or skills for goods or services. My brother-in-law the IRS angent has been sent through training on how to crack down on these types of underground economies, but he even admits that it's a futile attempt to stop what is alive and here to stay.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 28, 1998.

Oops, Bardou, lost your bet; read your post and have in younger days gone beyond hungry -- almost starved. Not something one forgets. Have spent a lot of time more than making up for the experience.

Otherwise, I'm inclined toward your point of view re better to be self-sufficient than forced to barter. This because have seen brutal human behavior and do not trust ppl; if they can't behave now, when things are outwardly rosy, how are they going to exercise self-control, patience, tolerance, altruism, and consideration when society is hanging by a thread?

In ideal and general disposition I am more people-friendly, trusting and hopeful -- but have watched in the last 15 years such a pronounced erosion in civility and integrity that I've had to square this emergent reality and recognize it's dangers. Hence my decision to hibernate thru the first 3 months of 2000, and then die if the only other alternative is to go out among abusive, predatory, rioting, looting, raping, mugging bands of roving human animals.

This is not suicide at all, but the reasonable preservation of dignity in the face of impossible odds. Naturally, I am hoping that civilization can pull itself back up to safe order within 3 months. But just imagine life if it couldn't -- no thankee!

The ideal of community back-to-earth colonies of spiritual, dedicated gentle people greatly appeals to me and always has. However, I have never heard of one that was successful and met pristine criteria. I'm more of a monastic hermit. So I've made do with the 'schizoid' solution and listen to gorgeous music therapy recordings of kirtan (group devotional chanting of mantras) with our dying patients, watching the heart open, the vibration rise, and death come magnificently approaching with vibrant spiritual joy. I just want what we give our patients!

Ashton & Leska in Cascadia, still stocking up on the TP, in case now-unforeseeable events increase it's value ;-)

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 28, 1998.

I'm rather with you than not Leska. Prepared to hunker down for a bit if the smoke signals warrant. I vision a gift economy in isolated communities...you can do a web search on "gift economy" for more details...I'm looking to build one. Where all contribute, and there is not tit for tat bartering, per se. If you live here and work...you eat....if your work becomes obsolete and you drift a bit...you still eat...all contribute,...some sing, some council, all plant, all cook...Not a popular stance,..but in tribal time, seems to me the only sane method.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), December 28, 1998.

Leska: I know what death and dying is all about, I have met it face to face. You have to admit that there is something built into us human beings the will to live, that is why we are here today. TP is the last on my list for survival. There is and never will be a Utopia society, except heaven if there is one. I have only heard about it but I don't know if it exists. So in the meantime, I'll do what I have to do until the bitter end. I want to live, I want to surive just to see what happens in the end. Don't you just love a mystery?

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 28, 1998.

Tell me, bardou,...I respect your thoughts as a long-time poster here,...why won'tthereeverbe a utopia. (misnomer word: utopia...means-nowhere)? How is it that you know there will never be a place where people will not go hungry? What is your inspiration or evidence? We can spout more than platitudes...we can make something better.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), December 28, 1998.

One of the more intriguing scenarios regarding cash after TSHTF is from Gary North, who commented in his "Reality Check" issue #33 (11/17/1998) that drug dealers will probably do very well in the cities. They have plenty of cash, are used to dealing in cash-only transactions, and additionally have a product that will probably be even more popular that ever, which can be sold for cash or bartered.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), December 28, 1998.

This of course from Gary North is very unimaginative, and, North does not recognize that there is a potent "cash-only" economy that thrives that has nothing to do with drugs. In this he is hand-inglove with all the politician that want to tell you that Y2K is a bump in the road. It's time friends to start using reason and quit listening to those that have stake in the status quo.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), December 28, 1998.

Donna: We can always try to make something better, but will everyone be satisfied with better opposed to what? You know that I am not a Bible thumper, but let's just use a story out of the Bible as an example. Satan was cast out of Heaven, the place where peace, tranquility, love, peace, etc. He wasn't happy about who was in control and decided to throw a wrench in the works. It is the same thing here on earth because none of us think alike. We are individuals with our own ideas, insecurities, emotions, etc. No matter who is in control, there will always be someone or something out of control. We are no where (Utopia) because we as a human race have choosen that path. And no matter who is in control, they are human beings subject to the same as you and I.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 28, 1998.

Donna, like that: "gift economy vision." If only! How will you deal with jealousies, equalities, resentments, etc? Every time I've seen a great ideal start, and flourish, it's the little petty human meannesses + weaknesses that bring it down. But I still believe your ideal can and will happen. In fact, I believe our higher soul nature *is* our true nature. But man must cultivate and attend to his real essence with as much interest as current dollar-wheel telescope before he can live at ease in natural abundance with his fellow man.

Bardou, yes, there is tremendous will to live, self-preservation and survival instinct. Do I enjoy schlepping around stocking up on bottled water, canned food and TP etc? No. Would I prefer to float about with millions of DGIs in anesthetized normal day-to-day comfy topor? Yes! But that drive to survive is kickin my reluctant bottom into gear. Yeah, I too enjoy a mystery, but not if I'm the murder victim.

Ashton & I are working toward earth continuation. But after GI, realized that because of conscious previous decisions to concentrate on inner ecstasy and helping others rather than earning money (not that they are mutually exclusive :), we're barrelled into a forced suburban trap instead of the better bug-out option. Just being clear-viewed about it and watching the law of cause-and-effect accelerate. The TP thing is just a nurse's giggling focus on an often-employed must-have business tool.

Ashton & Leska in Cascadia, who maybe should've bought TP stocks?

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx x

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 28, 1998.

Leska: You won't be the muder victim if you outwit the murderer.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 28, 1998.

Leska: You won't be the murder victim if you outwit the murderer.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 28, 1998.

bardou,..I love ya,..but you're waxing toward hyperbole! Sit down, breathe...give information that all including newbies can take in. They are not where we are. It is important for early awakers to remember this.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), December 28, 1998.

Donna: Not all "newbies" are stupid. They have a mind of their own, they think the same thoughts and feel the same feelings as we do. If a "newbie" is really interested in their future existence upon earth, then they will grasped the importance of this forum. This forum is mild in nature compared to some others I have lurked in and participated in. I was a newbie once on this forum and I learned much from others. No matter how harsh their words were or what they were trying to teach us, I took it all with an open mind, embraced what I thought was beneficial and tossed out the wacky. Newbies will know the difference between sanity and stupidity. I have learned from your post too Donna and appreciate your input. That's all we have to offer, is our input.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 29, 1998.

Wasn't the Jamestown colony (the first European settlement in America since the Vikings), which disappeared off the map, a religious "gifting" community?

Communism (communalism) aka Socialism has never worked for any length of time. Unless propped up by a fascist country like Amerika which needed an apparent enemy (USSR) so as to gain more control over its own subjects.

Read "1984" by George Orwell.

-- Mr. B (b@b.b), December 29, 1998.