I have been using Forte Polywarmtone FB paper for some time and have been happy with results obtained using selenium toner. I tone only for enhancing the DMAX and just enough tone to get rid of the "green". I recently started experimenting with Ilford MGIV FB. I use Kodak fixer (with hardner) which hasn't been a problem with the Forte paper. I prewash the prints for 5 min. before toning for 5 min. in selenium diluted 1:40 with Heico Permawash. The Ilford paper yellows considerably. I tried diluting the toner 10ml/990ml perma wash (1:90) and I still get a yellowing of the paper only slightly less than the 1:40 dilution. Anyone else having the same experience or know of a solution?

-- Robert Thomas (thoma5@bellsouth.net), October 07, 1998

Answers

Robert, I have never used Ilford warmtone MGIV so I can't speak specifically to your problem although when considering the neutral version of these papers Forte tones much more readily than Ilford. Just a couple of thoughts, I always tone as a separate step before I use permawash. That way I can reuse the selenium toner a few times before I dump it down the drain. I have noticed that if I let the toner sit too long (several weeks to months) it will yellow the paper. My other thought is more of a comment. I don't think you should use hardner in your paper fix. It's really not necessary for paper (some think it's unnecessary for film) and makes archival washing much more difficult.

-- mitch rosen (mitchrosen@sprintmail.com), October 07, 1998.

Don't harden. Tone @ 1:3 to completion. Treat after toning with Perma Wash.

-- Peter Hughes (leonine@redshift.com), October 08, 1998.

I've toned Ilford MG-IV-FB with no problems. I'm currently developing in LPD and using an acid stop. I use the Ilford archival processing system, 1 minute fix in concentrated Ilford rapid fixer followed by a 5 minute wash . I've toned with kodak selenium toner at 19:1 (water only) for 6-8 minutes to increase D-max. I hold several prints and tone a batch at a time and don't reuse the diluted toner. Chemicals are cheap compared to screwing up a lot of time, effort and money.

-- Gene Crumpler (nikonguy@emji.net), October 12, 1998.

Are you having trouble with MG IV FB or MGWT? You stated you're using MG IV FB, but your questions imply MG WT. I have alot of experience wiht both (they are my standard papers.) First, don't use a hardening fixer. It makes toning and washing difficult. In my view, Ilford is full of it regarding their 'archival' fixing method. I never use RAPID anything. Amonium fixers exacerbate finger marks on chlorobromide papers, especially Forte. Use the tried and true two-bath fixing method; we know this works because there are prints more than 100 years old that were processed this way. For removing the slight olive tint to warm tone papers, use Kodak selemium at 1:20 for 5 minutes or so. If you use a 1:3 dilution, you will get a very warm purple/brown tone. (That's how Ilford toned their sample prints.) I've never had a yellowing with Ilford papers. If the prints are not fixed properly before toning, you will get red/purple stains in the white areas.

-- Michael D Fraser (mdfraser@earthlink.net), October 13, 1998.

Mike;

Every thing I've done so far looks great. I've not read the technical papers on the rapid fix process, so can't comment on it's technical merits. I'll check this out!

-- Gene Crumpler (nikonguy@emji.net), October 15, 1998.

Some anidotal observations and thoughts about the physical chemistry logic on the Ilford rapid fix sysem. I concluded that fix was complete in 1 minute because with film development, typical films(except t-max) are clear before I can get the lid off the developing tank, approximately 20-30 seconds. Clearing time with standard kodak fixer is 2-4 minutes.

A second feature I like is that the fix step, being so short, becomes a precision operation of exactly one minute, rather than having two or more prints in the fixing operation and therefore not being careful about exact fixing times. Few darkroom workers have the patience to follow through with precise timing of their fixing operations, standing by watching the clock and pulling the print at the exact time.

Most problems with aging of fiber based prints are inadequate fixer removal, sulfur contamination from mounting, framing and storage materials, and ambient sulfur from combustion of fossel fuels. The logic is then, remove undeveloped silver as quickly as possible and minimize diffusion of sulfur compounds into the paper base. As a chemical engineer and environmental engineer, it makes sense.

I've e-mailed Ilford asking for references to papers related to the physical chemistry involved.

-- Gene Crumpler (nikonguy@emji.net), October 18, 1998.