I try to find information about the progress of y2k debugging in water supply networks in large cities, but it doesn't seam anybody realize that they are very vulnerable. Anybody have information about it?

-- Daniel Cormier (dcormier@parousie.com), April 14, 1998

Answers

Well, yes. I've been thinking of it as mostly dependant on the electricity grid, in that it takes electricity to pump the water. If power to pump it goes off for any significant time, and whatever emergency power there is also fails, then there is a big problem. Pressure in parts of the pipe network will become negative, sucking groundwater into the supply. Even if power is soon restored, I don't fancy drinking the results. Embedded systems at the water supply company might cause the same problem of course.

If I lived in an arid place, I'd be much more worried. As it is, in the UK there's probably enough rain that buckets under the downpipe from the roof will give a reasonably clean supply that boiling or sterilisation with bleach will make safe to drink. A power grid failure is the bigger worry to me.

-- Nigel Arnot (nra@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk), April 14, 1998.

To Nigel Arnot Your answer just increase my worry. This is the typical way of addressing the problem a have met so far.

FIRST, to see the water problem only as a side effect of power failure and not as a system that WILL fail by itself. As you are yourself aware, the control of water supply is very dependent on embedded systems. Even if there is absolutely no power failure, the water supply will dry out if those defective embedded systems are not found and corrected.

The following lines are quoted from The Irish Times of April 10, 1998:

The water supply element potentially most affected by a Y2K glitch is the telemetry system. This is a regional computing system for monitoring water flows, pressures, valve positions and treatment works. If it were to fail during the Y2K change-over it would struggle on, but progressively deteriorate. There would be a greater reliance on public complaints to monitor failures, and most fixes would have to be conducted manually.

Mr Willie Dempsey, an executive engineer with Dublin Corporation's water division says: "If you gradually let the bits and pieces on a car fall off, eventually it will stop. Similarly any big mains burst or drought crisis would be unimaginable in terms of the problems it would create. Telemetry is crucial to managing water supplies."

The Department of the Environment is now going to provide #1.5 million to fund the replacement and upgrade of the telemetry system. It is hoped the new system will be in operation by July 1st, 1999. Dublin Corporation has also completed an inventory check of all its systems, and last November letters were sent to suppliers asking whether they were Y2K compliant or not. http://www.irish-times.com/irish%2Dtimes/paper/1998/0410/tech4.html

If the Irish Department of the Environment is going to provide #1.5 million to solve this problem there MUST be a problem isn't it?

I am afraid that many will fail to address the problem seeing it ONLY as a power side effect and waiting for January 00 to find they are wrong.

SECOND, we are so used to see water flowing in our pipes that we are taking for granted that it will always continue to flow and are mainly concerned with whether it is drinkable or not. The main issue of water not flowing anymore is not drinking as much as sewerage.

THIRD, my concern is not as much about life in rural area is in large cities. Can anyone imagine what would be the life in any heavy populated city if the toilets are going to stop working? For a week, or a month? What would happen if people start a mass exodus out of those cities?

Believe me. Water is life. No water no human. Of course the power grid is important, but I still believe that we must address the issue of water supply FAST.

Daniel L. Cormier dcormier@parousie.com

-- Daniel Cormier (dcormier@parousie.com), April 14, 1998.

Just curious, Aukland (forgive the spelling) in New Zealand went without power for almost two months. That would be a good source for info on how water and sewage systems react to a electrical shutdown.

Anyone from down under around here?

-- Nancy Ulrich (ulrich@compuall.net), April 17, 1998.

Re Water Districts - has anyone on this bb actually checked out their city's water system to find out what specifically the people in charge were doing (if anything) on potential y2k problems in hardware and software (both administrative management systems as well as process control systems), firmware, EDIs, existence of backup generator and type, source, and amount of fuel stored in case of electric failure?

I am trying, as a layman, to think thru the entire process from accessing the original water source, treating it, distributing it, metering it, and disposing of and treating the resulting sewage. I don't want to re-invent the question wheel before I begin to ask my water district the questions that should be asked. Clearly, "Are you working on it?" will not generate the answers I should want to know.

-- victor Porlier (vporlier@aol.com), April 17, 1998.

Nancy, we experienced a major power failure last January in Canada, for more than a month in some cities. Water never stopped flowing. The reason is that the power utility prioritized hospitals... and water supply. As long as the power utility will be able to produce even 10% of their regular power, you can be sure they will do every thing to power up the water supply. No water is death. All water systems also have power backup.

-- Daniel Cormier (dcormier@parousie.com), April 18, 1998.

Victor, since I start worrying about our water supply (every time I flush the toilet I praise the Lord for the water we've been taking so long for granted) I checked a lot of web sites and received many email from all over the world. Many water districts have started working on the problem, but not one yet can tell me the size of it. Not because they are reluctant to give me the information (some have been very cooperative), but because they don't know. The main problem relies in the embeded systems. They have to be checked one by one and this is very time consuming. I don't know of any water district having done it yet. Concerned citizens that will ask the right questions about their water supply may be the greatest contribution in this time of crisis. I am still in the investigation stage, but here is an extract of an email I received from a Y2K project manager that can help you : "There is much work to be done. True. "We need to check all networks and OS's. True "We need to check and test all hardware and software. True "We need to check all embedded microprocessors. True. "We need to check all support systems such as phones, mobiles, pagers, security systems, two-way radio systems. True. "We need to check the above systems working together. True. "We need to ensure all future purchases of automated systems are Y2K compliant. True. "We need to leave an audit trial. True "Some systems will not work and fail (some will be critical). True "Someone, some where in the world, will lose there life due to a Y2K failure. Most likely.

But remember, Victor, the wild card is embeded systems. As long as nobody have tested them, nobody knows what is hiding behind the door. We have many horror stories about embeded systems in the industrial environment.

If you need more info about embeded systems you can either post the question on this bb or send me an email.

-- Daniel Cormier (dcormier@parousie.com), April 18, 1998.

I have a friend that is employed by the water dept. of a suburb of Atlanta. I asked if everything was now computerized. He said they came in 3 years ago and replaced everything with computers. I then asked if there were any manual overrides. He said NO. I asked if they had left any, even a few manual overrides. He said no, everything is completely computerized. I then asked if anyone was looking for hidden microchips and checking them. He said no one has been there. Now that is by a 20 year employee of the water department. No overrides and no one working on it. I started buying water that day.

-- Linda Underwood (ljmu@msn.com), April 19, 1998.

In a previous reply to Nancy (see above) I wrote :

"We experienced a major power failure last January in Canada, for more than a month in some cities. Water never stopped flowing."

I must give tribute to the truth and apoligize. I recently learned that in some parts of Montreal WATER DID RUN-OUT! I also learned that there was only a few hours of water reserves left when power was restored.

The state-owned power utility has raised the priority level of our water utility to Level 1 (why wasn't it Level 1 from the beginning?)which confirm my statement that water utilities will have the highest priority level.

Nigel Arnot is right, if the whole electricity grid fails, then we are fried. But we must not overlook the water purification and distribution systems per se.

Daniel Cormier - Y2K Water Discussion Moderator

-- Daniel Cormier (dcormier@parousie.com), May 23, 1998.

One of the posts above stated that this person is not worried about water supplies in rural areas. Here in Iowa you should be. There has been a concerted effort to get at least the farm houses on what is called "rural water" so the drinking water will be safe because too many chemicals have been applied to the soil for too many years and most wells will test positive for nitrates (a known carcinogen). So you have a two-fold problem - if the water system goes down, there are a lot more families without water and in some cases animals and even if there is a well, the water is not safe to drink and I don't know if bleach will take care of nitrates.

-- Rebecca Kutcher (kutcher@pionet.net), May 23, 1998.

If we are not worried about a Y2K water supply, we are too stupid to continue living.

-- George Eby (coldcure@coldcure.com), June 09, 1998.

See the Kansas City Star article, 06/09/1998

http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/local.pat,local/30da265f.608,.html

Although the article deals with wastewater treatment, not with purification of drinking water, the processes are similiar in that they both deal with embedded systems and with 'smart valves.'

Note that the wastewater system may just be in the 'inventory' phase, because they aren't able to supply numbers for the systems that must be replaced, but are only able to provide an estimate of cost to fix the problems they anticipazte finding.

They do have a backup plan: manual operation. It remains to be seen if there are manual overrides for all of the control processes.

One last thought: I hope the water purification and wastewater treatment facillities don't have a smart valve cross connection.

-- Rocky Knolls (rknolls@hotmail.com), June 10, 1998.

The trouble with the Y2K problem is that absolute lack of truly informed people engaged in the debate. This includes me. The informed people are the ones in the trenches fighting for the lives of those on the internet looking for the evasive answer - will there be water, electricity, food, etc? I can offer two things: 1. Don't trust information you get on the Internet. Hearsay travels fast. I have been confirming or refuting anything I pick up from the net before giving it any value whatsoever. To be honest, that which can be confirmed still causes me grave concern. 2. The true source of life is not water nor electricity, but God. Please bring your fears and panic to Him. Trust in Him and He will carry you through all of this. This is important because absolutely no one knows for certain what will happen, no one except the One who already gave His life for your salvation. See John 3:16

-- Kenn Palm (kennpalm@earthnet.net), August 24, 1998.

FEWER Y2K PROBLEMS WITH WATER & OTHER UTILITIES IN RURAL AREAS.

The subject of potential Y2K impact on Water & Other Commercial Utilities in large cities is well covered in this Discussion Forum.

For those who are able to relocate, the best countermeasure to minimize the Y2K impact is to move to a rural area where Water Production/Distribution and Wastewater Treatment systems are vastly less complicated and more dependable than in large cities.

Regardless of whether one lives in a large city or small town in a rural area, concerned citizens need to write City, County & State Officials to detemine their awareness of the Y2K Problem and their development of Contingency Plans to be prepared and deal with the various scenarios that could affect the Water Supply, Sewer and Wastewater Treatment, Electricity, Gas and City Services [Trash Collection. Fire & Police Protection. Ambulance & EMT Services].

In this regard, I recently sent the following letter to our County Emergency Preparedness Officer, City & County Officials -- which will hopefully be thought-provoking and of assistance to others in writing similar letters.

The letter initially addresses Electrical Power, which is prerequisite to Water Production/Distribution. Remember, it takes electricity TO FLUSH THE STOOL -- so please bear with me in the following letter as I outline the Production/Distribution of Water in Rooks County Kansas, beginning with the purchase of coal in Wyoming, Y2K impact on the railroad system over which the coal must be transported to be used in producing steam -- which is used to generate electricity -- which is used to pump water.

Rooks County Emergency Preparedness Officer Rooks County Court House 115 N. Walnut Street Stockton, Kansas 67669

Attn: Mr. Denzil McNeal, Disaster Preparedness Officer

Dear Denzil,

I am writing this as a Concerned Citizen who is convinced that the Year 2000 Computer Problem [Y2K] has the very real potential to create serious -- even life-threatening -- problems if we do not address all possible scenarios and prepare Contingency Plans in advance to minimize such problems in the event they do occur.

You and others in positions of responsibility may be fully aware of the Potential Y2K Problems, and already have the situation under control -- but, on the off-chance that the potential adverse effects of Y2K may not be understood or prepared for, I would like to provide Y2K background material which you may not be aware of, and also venture my opinion and analysis of the situation, and what can be done in advance as Emergency Preparedness.

As I see it, the main adverse impact in Rooks County will be the potential loss of electrical power, water and possibly natural gas as well.

Since I am not aware of the degree to which the natural gas supply is computer-controlled, I will not comment further; except to say that dialogue needs to be opened with KN Energy to determine any possible disruption in the supply of natural gas.

It is my understanding that all Commercial Electrical Power for Rooks County is generated by Coal-Fired Power Plants near Ellsworth and Topeka, Kansas -- for which the coal is shipped in from Wyoming via railroad.

Unless a sufficient stockpile of coal is pre-positioned at the power plants in anticipation of possible disruption in delivery of coal from Wyoming, such plants could very likely run out of coal before the Y2K problem that affects the railroads is fixed.

It is my understanding that the majority of railroad track switches in the USA are computer-controlled by Time/Date/Event Embedded Chips that automatically switch the tracks at a predetermined time and date, according to the regular train schedule.

Come as early as the beginning of Fiscal Year 2000 [1 July 1999 and 1 October 1999] -- as well as 1 January 2000 -- if there is no longer a manual switching capability and the Y2K scenario develops as many experts believer, the railway delivery of coal to Kansas Power Plants could be delayed for a considerable length of time.

The second Y2K impact would result with the Power Plants running to full capacity with an adequate stockpile of coal to continue in operation, but with the potential for the Power Distribution System to fail in those segments where the Switching & Distribution Network is computer-controlled.

I understand the Power Distribution System can revert to manual operation by physically setting switches/relays throughout the network -- which, in addition to being done manually, can in some instances be accomplished by Radio Transmitter Activation of switches/relays. Thus, we would hopefully experience no more disruption of Commercial Power in Rooks County beyond that which can routinely result from storm outage.

However, since we don't know the magnitude of the problem or duration required to restore normal service under the Y2K scenario, it is prudent to plan on as long as a week or more without electricity.

If our source of Commercial Power is disrupted, then Rooks County will be in total darkness at night -- except for those who may have Emergency Stand-By Electrical Power Generators of their own. If not, then the only source of illumination will be flashlights, kerosene or propane lamps and candles.

Without electricity, there won't be heat or air conditioning, food will spoil in the refrigerators/freezers, and there won't be any water to drink, cook or bathe with. YOU CAN'T FLUSH A STOOL WITHOUT ELECTRICITY! After 1 flush of the commode, you cease to have usable indoor plumbing!

No one wants anyone stumbling around inside their home in the dark with the danger of falling or other injury, and especially so in the case of the aged and infirmed -- whether they be in their own home, in nursing homes, hospital or assisted care facilities.

If our nursing homes, hospital, police department, fire department, ambulance service, water wells, sewer plant and other essential facilities don't already have Emergency Stand-By Electrical Power Generators available, hooked-up and ready to go, we need to provide such capability. In lieu of purchasing, there are numerous companies from whom generators can be obtained on a rental basis.

Coordintion should be effected with the Commercial Power Companies to determine their assessment of the Y2K problem and any plans such companies have to pre-position Emergency Stand-By Electrical Generators in each town, hooked-up and ready to go in the event Primary Power is lost.

If the Commercial Power Companies do not have a plan to pre-position Emergency Stand-By Generators, the fall-back position is to determine the feasibility and cost for the city to provide the generators and have them ready to produce at least enough power for minimum lighting, and to keep the furnaces and fans running, refrigerators/freezers operating -- and stools flushing!

If it is not feasible or is cost-prohibitive to provide the entire city with Minimum Back-Up Essential Electrical Power, the least that needs to be done is provide Emergency Stand-By Generators to power the pumps in the City Water Wells. Again, such generators can be leased in lieu of purchase. If the city deems it is cost-prohibitive to buy or lease such generators, the least that should be done is to purchase and install Double-Throw Manual Transfer Switches for the City Water Wells -- hooked-up and ready for Community-Minded Ciizens with power generators to immediately head for the City Water Wells when Commercial Power is lost, wire their generators into the Transfer Switches and keep the pumps operating in the water wells.

There are way more than enough Community-Minded Citizens in Rooks County Kansas with power generators on their welding trucks, and generators driven by tractor PTOs, who will undoubtedly agree to work with the city in such Contingency Planning -- in which all the city needs to do is provide the advanced installation of the necessary Transfer Switch Boxes to be ready and waiting when needed.

Obviously -- except for those individuals with enough money and foresight to have purchased generators of their own -- the city will still be in darkness, with no heat, air conditioning and food spoiling due to lack of refrigeration -- but, at least, there will be water to drink, cook and bathe in, and to keep the stools flushing!

Sewage will continue to flow from the houses into the sewer lines from the gravity pressure of water being drained from sinks, bathtubs and commodes.

Without electricity to the Sewer Lift Stations or at the Sewage Treatment Plant, the sewer lines will eventually fill to capacity and start backing-up into the houses and other buildings. However, it will take several days to reach this stage, and hopefully Commercial Power will have been restored to the Lift Stations and Sewage Treatment Plant before this happens.

In addition to Community Preparedness, the General Public needs to be informed of the anticipated problems and the basic steps they can take in Individual Preparedness.

Some may want to hook an existing Private Water Well to their house, and purchase a Stand-By Generator to both power the well and to provide minimum electricity to their house.

A stockpile of water, food, medicine and other emergency essentials will be required -- especially in nursing homes and the hospital.

I am enclosing material that describes the Y2K problem in full detail, and trust it is something you may not already be aware of. Both Y2K audio tapes give detailed insight into the Y2K problem.

For public viewing, I also have a video tape that has recently been developed in Kansas City for Y2K Community/Individual Awareness and Preparation. The video, "Surviving The Year 2000", was written and directed by Jack Cashill PhD, and is narrated by Jim Lord of Westergaard 2000.

I can provide additional copies of the video for $19.95 plus $3.00 Shipping & Handling. My agreement with Dr. Cashill does not allow the tapes to be sold for less than $19.95.

Denzil, please understand my motivation in writing this -- which is done in the spirit of needed community awareness as to the potential adverse effects which the Y2K situation may produce.

You are doing an absolutely outstanding job as Rooks County Emergency Preparedness Officer -- and I hope to find that you are light-years ahead of me on Y2K and other adverse scenarios that might develop.

Respectfully Yours,

Ned Colburn

Copy: Rooks County Board of Commissioners Mayor & City Council -- City of Plainville

-- Ned Colburn (cicks@ruraltel.net), August 25, 1998.

August 7, 8, & 9 there was a Y2K Preparedness Expo at our Washington State Fairgrounds. I was there for 9 hours on the 8th. It was excellent! Before the 5:00 p.m. panel discussion (very excellent!), Wash. State Rep. Bill Thompson, 44th District, was asked to give a short report. He said he had been up to our State's Grand Coulee Dam a few days ago, and that it will NOT be Y2K complaint. He was told up there, "The power might not even make it to the grid!" He also stated, "This is the first global crisis to come on a precise schedule." He said having a septic tank is a plus, and also to have an outhouse ready with supplies of lye! Daniel, we are indeed vulnerable!

-- Holly Allen (Holly3325@juno.com), August 25, 1998.

I'd just like to put in a plug here for the Year 2000 and Water forum that Daniel Cormier has put together. There are a lot of good posts in this thread, but it'd be nice to see them in that forum. Daniel's done a lot of good, hard work over the past few months to get the topic of water systems dug out of the general slew of y2k topics to provide clarity and focus. The forum he's set up (that uses the same software this one does) is one of the tools being used to do that.

This forum (Time Bomb! 2000) is a very high traffic forum. There are lots and lots of topics, threads, etc. That's great, but when it comes to the posts in this thread, they'll soon slip off the "top" list into the relative obscurity of the "Older Messages (by category)" threads where they become much less visible and difficult for people to find. Keeping as many water-related messages as possible stored in a forum dedicated to that topic will make it that much easier for people to find the information they'll need in the near future.

And, of course, posting your messages in both forums is as easy as making a bookmark and copying and pasting. (Some people may want to do that until more people are aware of the Water forum and web site Daniel's put together - be sure to tell people about it.)

The link/URL to the forum is:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Year%202000%20%20Problem%20and%20Water

The web site is located at:

http://parousie.com/year2000/water/

Bill

-- Bill (billdale@lakesnet.net), September 01, 1998.

Yes, I'm worried? For those fortunate enough to have a personal swimming pool it can become a perfect alternative water source. Simply tap into your municipal water line(using a switch valve) BEFORE your municipal water goes through a carbon/softener/ultra violet set of filters, run a line to a pump capable of pulling sufficient psi from your pool and also capable of reversing itself when it builds up sufficient psi (in order to clear the line of water to avoid freezing); power the pump with a small diesel generator; run a hose to the deep end of your pool; and, when your municipal water fails, immediately switch to the pool water. The filters will de-chlorinate the pool water and remove any bacteria. As a plus, the filtration system will give you, irrespective of Y2K, a wonderfully cleansed supply of soft, clear water.

-- Robert D. O'Byrne (rdo@rdob.com), September 30, 1998.

you were all wrong!

-- james corgan (jamesc@yahoo.com), December 02, 2004.